Trials of the Magians and casual players.

[Osmond]

If anything as conselation they should make Empyrean 85/90 give you the WS instead of having to go out your way and building another trial so you can take the WoE version to 99. I think it's rather silly having to do a trial all over again for the WS, but oh well it doesn't take too long to build a WoE weapon to 99, but it would be nice if Empyrean 85 / 90 would give you the WS instead.

I guess it is, but they wanted to try and get ppl back to WoE, to help the casual player/s. If they can't get R/E/M/D they can as least get WoE w/ that WS to stand out....kinda? I just don't know if it'll help.

[Hawklaser]

There seems to be a problem of people wanting to play mage jobs. I see it daily when there are several groups shouting for BRDs as one of their only open spots left open. I've seen it back in the days of merit parties where you would have several groups of 4DDs shouting for a RDM and BRD. All of these DDs and not one of them wants to jump to a mage job. So you are telling me that they have no problem going as mage? The shouts I've seen are contrary to what you state.

You are correct, there are those who don't want to take the "easy way out" and play a mage job to get what they want. They are also the ones on here who have been complaining about not being able to participate in events STARTED by other people. The ones who want to participate and don't have a REMD could always START their own shout. The ones complaining have nothing to blame but themselves for not starting their own group or changing to a job that is in demand.

Now I don't have a problem playing a mage job, since I do have SCH at 99, but I don't like playing SCH in events where end up having to play it as a gimped WHM. There is a matter of enjoyment involved, as there are some jobs players will derive absolutely no enjoyment, and for me one job I can not stand to play is BLM. Also BRD's gameplay does not lend itself to being enjoyed by a lot of people.

Something else to consider is how player reputation works, as back in the past if you got known as a good RDM or BRD it became very hard to do events on other jobs, because you were always wanted on that job. At one point I stopped leveling RDM because I did not want to end up only being able to play harder content as a RDM. And from what I have heard, BRD is still one of those jobs if you get known as good on its hard to do events as other jobs.

So it may not be avoiding the easy way, and it may not be because they don't want to play the support jobs. They may not enjoy those jobs or they don't want to get stuck playing only those jobs for events.

[Xtrasweettea]

Now I don't have a problem playing a mage job, since I do have SCH at 99, but I don't like playing SCH in events where end up having to play it as a gimped WHM. There is a matter of enjoyment involved, as there are some jobs players will derive absolutely no enjoyment, and for me one job I can not stand to play is BLM. Also BRD's gameplay does not lend itself to being enjoyed by a lot of people.

Something else to consider is how player reputation works, as back in the past if you got known as a good RDM or BRD it became very hard to do events on other jobs, because you were always wanted on that job. At one point I stopped leveling RDM because I did not want to end up only being able to play harder content as a RDM. And from what I have heard, BRD is still one of those jobs if you get known as good on its hard to do events as other jobs.

So it may not be avoiding the easy way, and it may not be because they don't want to play the support jobs. They may not enjoy those jobs or they don't want to get stuck playing only those jobs for events.

I agree with what you say. I used to be noted for having a great RDM for almost every group event and merit party. I ended up getting so burnt on RDM, I leveled PUP to relax (mostly solo). Though, unfortunately, no one wanted PUP (let alone another DD). So I leveled BRD up.

I understand BRD isn't entertaining and that playing a mage job a different way isn't usually fun (like making RDM into a PNK) for most people. I've lived it. Though I blame no one else except myself for playing those jobs.

I understand your point of view. Though, I would rather be noted for being a good mage and progressing rather than fearing never being able to play my DD in PUGs.

[Hawklaser]

Though, I would rather be noted for being a good mage and progressing rather than fearing never being able to play my DD in PUGs.

Not really fearing being able to play my DD job in end game events currently, but its more looking down the road as content levels go up and older content gets abandoned, and for new players and future returning players.

As if the only way for someone newish be able to really participate in the current community baseline endgame events is to level WHM, SCH, COR, BRD or GEO, there is a big problem. As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times. Now if there were AH variants for each weapon type, might not be as bad when content levels go up, but that currently is not the case.

[RAIST]

There is also the issues with gearing a mage job if you go the route of leveling a mage job just to get in there. What if they don't have the job(s) leveled becuase they were never interested in playing them, and as such don't have any relevant gear for it? Mine aren't even up to snuff really, and just 3 mages consume an entire container for their gears (and this is not including some universal pieces that are kept elsewhere, that's just job/class specific only pieces). And no, I don't use the porters for them because I frequently hop on/off of them.

The point is, it's not always just a matter of switching to a mage class. Nor the process of book/abyssea burning them to 99. Sure...might seem easy enough when you say it...but you also have to consider that they may be very gimped, and some people may just not want to arse with everything else needed to make the job worth a flip.

[Alistaire]

except you forgot one thing you're hypothetically telling me to go level a job or jobs that I may or may not like for the sake of getting a weapon for a job I enjoy...... Sarick has it spot on, to many selfish players in this game I'm tired of seeing so many people telling me I have to do something against my will in this game because it's for the better or something similar to this line..


This game is broken, but it's not the developers fault or coding sadly.

Wait a sec, you're saying it's bad to suggest you do something more for other people than yourself...to do something that's more work than fun, in order to get something fun, and you're saying *other* people are selfish?

Just want to be sure that's what you're saying. There might be a hint of irony in it if you are though.

[Hawklaser]

Wait a sec, you're saying it's bad to suggest you do something more for other people than yourself...to do something that's more work than fun, in order to get something fun, and you're saying *other* people are selfish?

Just want to be sure that's what you're saying. There might be a hint of irony in it if you are though.

This highlights something I just said.

As if the only way for someone newish be able to really participate in the current community baseline endgame events is to level WHM, SCH, COR, BRD or GEO, there is a big problem.

While most of us likely don't have a problem leveling different jobs to be more versatile, the problem comes from when only support jobs are viable to participate in the current baseline endgame content without already being geared to the teeth. Now when you consider what all is needed for the rest of the jobs to even get a chance to participate, the deck is stacked against anyone behind the gear curve, which leads to a lot of new players quitting because they may not have fun on those support jobs.

Or another way of putting this is the future of the game is becoming the game doesn't start until after you have gotten all your gear by playing a support. That is a future that will kill the game if it becomes the norm, as it makes it much less likely people who try the game will stick around.

[Xtrasweettea]

There is also the issues with gearing a mage job if you go the route of leveling a mage job just to get in there. What if they don't have the job(s) leveled becuase they were never interested in playing them, and as such don't have any relevant gear for it? Mine aren't even up to snuff really, and just 3 mages consume an entire container for their gears (and this is not including some universal pieces that are kept elsewhere, that's just job/class specific only pieces). And no, I don't use the porters for them because I frequently hop on/off of them.

The point is, it's not always just a matter of switching to a mage class. Nor the process of book/abyssea burning them to 99. Sure...might seem easy enough when you say it...but you also have to consider that they may be very gimped, and some people may just not want to arse with everything else needed to make the job worth a flip.

Understandable, and I see your point of view. Though if the person doesn't wish to take the mage route, then the person needs to bite the bullet and start their own shouts or join a LS that doesn't require RMED for "entry level" SoA content. If you are wondering if those shells really exist, yes they do. I am in a shell that does not require RMED for "entry level" SoA content. This past Tuesday we had pick-up members who didn't have RMED, but had ToM GKTs and one WAR has a 90 Coin GAX. The group went 1/1 on the three NMs we decided to take on (Supernal Chapuli, Tax'et, and Divagating Jagil).

[Xtrasweettea]

The DD situation is "bad" now because shouters want to be able to get the most Plasm per trip as possible. It is no different than trying to get the most kills per set of playtime for Voidwatch or the most EXP per hour when Meriting on Colbri.

This isn't selfishness, it's business. The shouter knows that he or she isn't trying to get the most EXP/Plasm/Kill/Gil per hour for his or her own selfish needs (not always), he/she is trying to get the most for the hardest to fill jobs: support (and now PLDs). Support and mage jobs are not always the most entertaining jobs, they require the most attention to play, and require higher than average reaction to play. DDs do not necessarily require such high requirements: they don't need to look at other player's health bars, they don't need pay attention to TP moves that give status affects to other players, and they don't need to keep the group buffed almost 100% of the time. Most of the DD's job duty is on auto-attack. The differences alone make the DD jobs more appealing and mage jobs unappealing to most players. It's obvious when we see the large number of DDs compared to the number of support.

We have an oversupply of DD and an under-supply of support. So, in order for the shouter to get best support he or she can, he or she is going to need to appeal to them. Since there is no way to measure the skill of a player without knowing the player themselves, the easiest way to measure "skill" will be requiring the DDs to have RMED. This restricts the number of DDs, but potentially increases the number of currency/exp/kills per trip/pop/run. This appeals to the under-supplied support jobs.

This is called "supply-side economics". It is working here.

Now to stop the issue that is Hawklaser brought up about progressive credentialism (Quote: "As the DD situation is only going to get worse on gear requirements as things go on, and help for older content can be very hard to get at times.") that is created because of supply-side economics of our job economy, players will need to do five things:
1. Play a support job
2. Start their own shout group and they can set their own criteria
3. Join a LS that doesn't require RMED for events.
4. Try to convince the support job players to reduce their currency/exp/kill per hour for the same amount of work as he or she would be doing if he or she is being "paid" more per trip/pop/run.
5. Ask SE to make AH equivalents (as Hawklaser had suggested)

#1 and #2 are doable. #3 might me harder. Good luck with #4. #5 could happen.

[Mirage]

I play support and I don't really care if all delve participants are RMED holders, especially considering the "E" there is a really really broad term. A lv85 empy is in no way a seal of quality, but still meets the "criteria",and people will look less down at that person than at someone with a weapon that is better than that empy, but still not a "RMED". I'd take a 99 TP bonus SAM, or a 99 OA2 DRK if they asked me to join sooner than some lv85/90 caladbolg or masamune wielder asked me.

But maybe I'm just insane (or a reasonable person, in FFXI, those are basically the same).