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  1. #1
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
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    Long Holding Times for Delve NMs

    Greetings delvers!

    It seems we have a new face on the forums today – the lead developer for Delve content, Ryota Iwagami. From what I hear, he will be showing his face every now and again and he has made a couple of lengthy comments about this new content, so please take a moment and check it out!

    Since they are rather long, instead of posting both at the same time I am going to put this post up first, so you all can start reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryota_Iwagami View Post
    Delve lead Ryota Iwagami here.

    Thanks so much for playing the Delve content. By letting us know your thoughts on the good (and bad) aspects, and the points that we were almost able to nail, it will go a long way for future adjustments and content, so please keep the comments coming.

    We would like to make adjustments to the Delve monsters that are spawned in the field areas, specifically in regards to long holding time, but we would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this first. At the current point in time I'd personally like to make adjustments if possible, but that is not to say that we will definitely force this through. It would really help out if you could let us know your opinions along with your feelings on the matter.

    Now then, onto the matter at hand.

    The proposed adjustment we would like to perform is to set the maximum battle time for fighting Delve NMs in the field to 45 minutes.

    The premise of fighting these Delve monsters is that you have prepared your equipment sufficiently, and as such, they have been made so you can defeat them in 15 minutes. With that said, if you are unable to defeat the monster in 15 minutes that means that either you might not have been properly prepared or that your strategy might be a bit off, so the monster powers up as a means to counter congestion (Rage or hyper-mode, as they say.). If you are feeling a spike in the monster's evasion and attack power, more than likely this is the reason. I'd like to apologize for there being no way to determine if the higher evasion and defense is part of the monster's normal behavior or not due to the fact that there is no log message when the monsters rages. As for the enhancements related to their normal behavior, by employing the proper strategy you can mitigate this, lowering their evasion or lowering their defense, so if you feel they've become stronger before time runs out, please try out various strategies and I think you'll notice some changes.

    Currently, we are aware that even after these monsters have become enraged, they are being defeated by battling with them for very long periods of time. This means that the feature for countering congestion is not working properly, and as such we would like to make adjustments to this aspect. I understand that players who were unable to defeat these monsters within the set time but were able to defeat them over the course of a long period of time will no longer be able to do this. Due to the fact that this adjustment could make conditions poor for players who challenge this content later, I would like to hear everyone's opinion and base the decision off of that.

    Please let me know which of the following options you prefer:
    1. There may be congestion, but keep it as it is now
      It'll be hard to tell how long it will take until it's your turn to fight, but you'll be able to defeat the monster most likely even if it takes time.
    2. Set a time limit to counter congestion
      It'll be easier to know when it's your turn to fight, but you'll no longer be able to defeat the monster spending the amount of time that players are currently.
    3. Set the time limit to 20 minutes and make it so the monsters do not go hyper
      It will be extremely easy to know when it's your turn to fight, but the time limit is stricter than option 2. However, the monster's behavior will be easy to understand.
    I would really like to hear the opinions from players who have yet to take on this content and from those who have tried it out but were unsuccessful. Once you start to understand the monster's special traits and have supplemental strategy information I believe the story will change; however, during battles that take a long time it's difficult to confirm strategic elements due to the fact that the monster’s basic parameters increase so much. With that said I would really appreciate it if you would allow us to put a time limit on these battles.

    If we decide to make these adjustments, we are planning to perform them around 5/10, so while it's only a short amount of time for feedback we'd appreciate it if you could post your comments by 5/7. Whether we decide to make this adjustment or not, I will be sure to post our conclusion.

    Thank you very much.
    (10)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  2. #2
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
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    Below is the second post by Ryota Iwagami, as promised. This post consists of comments in regards to suggestions and feedback made by players on the Japanese forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryota_Iwagami View Post
    Iwagami here. Thanks for all the feedback.

    I've read all of your feedback up until now.
    While it will be difficult to address every single point, I'd like to respond to a couple of them with my thoughts.

    Increasing the amount of "???" points

    I actually looked into this myself; however, there is a high possibility that large battle condition differences would arise between the areas where the same monster is spawned, so I thought this was difficult to accomplish. For example, the below are some differences in battle conditions that could arise:
    • Easier to access some ??? points over others
    • ??? areas with no aggressive monsters in the vicinity
    • Closer to walls
    With these differences it would cause players to utilize the most advantageous spawning location. For Voidwatch, your are under the confrontation status and we worked hard to find areas that were exactly the same for each spawn point, and set up three of them. While it might be possible to say that this isn't the case, there is a chance that we use these locations for other content as well, so we'd appreciate it if you could forgive us for not being able to add additional "???" points for now. We'd like everyone to enjoy this content turn by turn.

    It's tough to know if our strategy is working. Please introduce clear messages.

    First, as some additional information on this content, there are no random weaknesses where the WS or magic spells change like Voidwatch for Delve to show your strategy is accurate. To give a better idea, it's probably close to the way that defense is lowered while under the effect of Dia. Of course it's not limited to certain magic like Dia only, but for example, by doing XX the damage reduction will decrease by 1% or evasion will be reduced by 10. I'd really like to give a clear example, but it would be too obvious, so please try out a variety of things. I am personally interested in what strategies everyone is using, and have been concealing myself near areas where these battles are taking place as well as reading everyone's blogs. I'm happy to see that monster strategies are gradually being figured out. I'd really be glad if you could share you information and let people know your experience with this content.

    Preparations (equipment)

    The Delve monsters have been arranged in different tiers of content levels.

    Upper tier: Boss monster
    Balance has been set so that it can be fought without using the items that bosses drop.

    Middle tier: Shard IV and V NMs
    Balance has been set with the idea that enhanced items from shards I-III will be used.

    Lower tier: Shard I-III NMs
    Balance has been set so that they can be fought without Delve equipment.
    If you skip obtaining equipment from the lower tier monsters and dash right into the middle tier, it will be a really big challenge because the difference in level is so large. By prepping your fire power gradually starting on the lower tier monsters, you'll be able to do better. If you feel that even the lower tier monsters are too difficult, it would be best to gather equipment from wildskeeper reives, skirmish, salvage II, and other content. While I understand that some of you may not want to struggle to gather equipment, please understand that the challenge will be extremely hard if you don't.

    After reading all of the comments up until now, I've discussed with the rest of the development team and came up with a third option. Please let us know your opinions on this.
    • Option 3: Set the time limit to 20 minutes and make it so the monsters do not go hyper
      It will be extremely easy to know when it's your turn to fight, but the time limit is stricter than option 2. However, the monster's behavior will be easy to understand.
    (*Please note that this option was added to the OP after the fact.)

    This will make it so the time is reduced by 25 minutes for those that can withstand the monster’s hyper mode, but what do you think? I believe it would be too much of a change to keep monsters from going hyper for 30 minutes, so I propose limiting it to 20 minutes. If you would like to fight for longer than 30 minutes, we would like you to fight in the fracture underground.

    Thank you very much.

    PS:
    For those leaving feedback, it'd help out a lot if you write about the type of monster and other details when commenting on certain aspects. The situation will be a bit different depending on if you are saying you are unable to attack the Chapuli NM or if you are unable to attack the Twitherym NM, for example. The special traits for each of these NMs are very different, so I think this will make it easier for you all to discuss as well.
    (7)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  3. #3
    Player Toioiz's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    31
    Character
    Snozeberry
    World
    Lakshmi
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    MNK Lv 99
    Fighting the Twitherym NM with sushi, on a 2handed job (Samurai), with gravity, light shot, dia2, geomancer accuracy+ (capped skill), Geomancer evasion down (Capped skill), with NNI Gear, and a skirmish weapon, and corsair buffs I was only at 50% accuracy. It seems a bit excessive.
    (8)

  4. #4
    Player bigdave's Avatar
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    Bigdave
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    Cerberus
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    how about leave it the way it is since no one is complaining
    (19)

  5. #5
    Player HimuraKenshyn's Avatar
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    Character
    Starskyy
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    Shiva
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    BLU Lv 99
    I like it finally content that we can't destroy as soon as it's added to the game. Need to actually think again instead of zerg zerg done next. A time limit is needed other wise I see the crazy long kite fights will be back. The message is get stronger to do the higher content but peeps still just want to jump to the bosses skipping it all by any means necessary, I like the change. Gives a reason to keep playing and a bit of a challenge in the process...
    (4)

  6. #6
    Player Zumi's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    Character
    Zumi
    World
    Phoenix
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    PLD Lv 99
    I would leave it as it is.

    Because if you change it now and make it despawn, you would have to make the fight easier because many of the people who already cleared it fought it for a really long time during raged mode and now have access to the high damage weapons. It would put everyone else at a disadvantage who has yet to clear it when the change goes in.
    (10)

  7. #7
    Player Siviard's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    San d'Oria
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    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    As someone who has participated in fighting Delve NMs out in the field, I can tell you that as it stands now, there will not be a whole lot of people who will be able to successfully defeat these NMs. The ones who say "leave it as it is now" such as Bigdave from Cerberus is probably one of those people.

    I do enjoy the content, and the strategy that needs to be involved. It takes away from the "zerg zerg and zerg some more" mentality that had taken over recently. However, I do feel now that "strategy" is needed in order to defeat these NMs, 20 minutes is simply not enough. I would propose a 30 minute timer, with no "hyper mode". That way, if your group is unable to defeat the NM within the 30 minute time limit, the NM simply despawns and a revision of your strategy is needed.

    That's my take, at least.
    (5)

  8. #8
    Player Raksha's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Raksha
    World
    Lakshmi
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    SCH Lv 99
    Just get rid of the rage mode. Its not like people are lining up waiting to kill these monsters.
    (29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    I want to say that there's a middle ground here but this isn't really middle ground. A lot of old systems were shit. Some new systems aren't much better. What's in the middle of shit and shit? More Shit. So no, I don't want a middle ground. I want something good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Landsoul View Post
    >Twilight Scythe is overpowered that's why we're nerfing it
    >Weapons with double damage compared to relic

    LOGIC.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    \m/ (*.*) \m/ "THIS SOLUTION IS THE MOST METAL!" \m/ (*.*) \m/

  9. #9
    Player
    Join Date
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    So if we need the best players, that obviously means people with 99 R/M/E! Oh wait, they all unsub'd this update.

    Also, I like this bit.
    Currently, we are aware that even after these monsters have become enraged, they are being defeated by battling with them for very long periods of time. This means that the feature for countering congestion is not working properly, and as such we would like to make adjustments to this aspect. I understand that players who were unable to defeat these monsters within the set time but were able to defeat them over the course of a long period of time will no longer be able to do this. Due to the fact that this adjustment could make conditions poor for players who challenge this content later, I would like to hear everyone's opinion and base the decision off of that.
    So because people spent an hour+ trying to beat a stupidly evasive raged monster and succeeding but taking so long you're going with, "Oh, they beat it after two hours? Let's set a time limit of 20mins! Because that is the most logical thing to do!"

    ... Just either lower the non-raged def/eva of monsters and still have them rage in 15mins, or give everyone Murasamemaru and Ochains and tell them to pldx2 corx2 brdx3 whmx3 sam/thfx8.
    (15)
    Last edited by Mizuharu; 05-03-2013 at 06:30 AM.

  10. #10
    Player Siviard's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    San d'Oria
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    336
    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Raksha View Post
    Just get rid of the rage mode. Its not like people are lining up waiting to kill these monsters.
    Agreed. When we did the Raptor yesterday evening, there were no other groups waiting for us to finish.
    (3)

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