Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

[Zhronne]

I'm confused.
So a solution that a player thought about on the SoA release day (Karbuncle) is actually all they have in mind for REMC?
I was hoping they had something more... complex in mind.

I guess this new version of the quested WS will carry over the properties it has on the original weapon, so Aftermath, Afterglow, +30% damage, +45% damage or nothing if we're talking about the WoE version.
This is preposterous.

It might put some new life into WoE, for a while at least, but what's gonna happen to Dynamis, to Salvage, to Voidwatch?
They had JUST finished revamping all that content to make it relevant, and now they destroyed it all again.
Really, I think a 16 years old game designer could have thought of a better solution.
It seems like they're not thinking about the consequences, acting just on the spur of the moment... is this Abysseav2? The same thing happened back then and it took them 2 years to get back on track and rebalance things that got broken by the fact they applied changes (as cool as they may have been) without thinking on the consequences.
Now this is happening again... you'd think they had learned their lesson but appearently some people never learn.

Is this a keen attempt to make us jump over to FFXIV or what?

[Afania]

I wasn't even going to respond until you devolved to personal attacks. To call my opinion "clueless" when you have no idea who I am, or what I do, is ignorance of the highest level.

Wow pissed off when I call you clueless that much? It's not even a "personal" attack, it's just pointed out that the point you made isn't thoughtful enough.

I don't care about who you are nor what you do, I don't know and not interested to know. I only care about what you said makes sense or not, sadly it doesn't.

So SE has mind control technology now?

Lol no, it's just human nature. Ppl would do things this way, that's just how it goes. Name me ONE MMORPG that that main stream strategy doesn't involve most efficient setup. WoW everyone loved so much had same issue for YEARS.

You don't need mind control technology, you only need basic understanding of psychology.

Look up the word majority, then cross reference that with the basic Economics, English, and Mathematical definitions. Then come back and edit your post. Protip, majority = more than half.

In the world of candyland, rainbows are much greater than lollipops. Protip: Use the agreed upon statistics we've figured out over the years instead of your made-up examples, or don't bother to "try" to use math to prove your points.

So do you have YOUR math to prove your point, that dedicated player with R/E/M contribute less than players with NO R/E/M?

A lot of players with ZERO R/E/M are either just mules, low lv players, or players wanted to try FFXI just cuz they're curious about it or they miss it. They're not even involved in this game. And some doesn't get R/E/M because they don't need it.

So can you prove that out all that player that's involved, more than half of them still won't be able to get at least lv 85 R/E/M?

Do you think analyzing MMORPG user preferences, is about getting the current sub number, and see the % those sub number has R/E/M? It's way more complicated than that. You asked me for math, unfortunatly, you won't be able to provide one yourself.

I apologize. It's obvious English isn't your first language. But to your point, tell me, do you know the damage percentage difference between those two jobs with said weapons, or are you just parroting something you read? If you can accurately break that down, then, maybe, we can have a discussion.

Yes, give me a sec and I'll give you the numbers with spreadsheet, this is actually easier to pull off. I wonder what makes you believe that the % between jobs can't be calculated?

Honestly I'm bored of quoting your fail. Either step the discussion up with facts (not imaginary stats), or get over it. I get it, you worked hard for your R/M/E. But step back, calm down, and talk to me rationally or gtfo.

I wonder who is acting irrationally here, by assuming how MMO industry works. The real number is that server merge happened twice during Abyssea era when same clueless producer pulled off same shit years ago, are you going to say this didn't happen and it's not "numbers"?

[Areayea]

@Afania #207 (yes I'm turning this to twitter chat XD) ok, so while I'm not completely destroying my opinion that they should just boost dmg on relics, and stats on mythics, the ws thing might actually be a good idea for Empys; anyway despite I presume that that's what's going to happen... allow me to disect your statement, just to play Devils advocate, However just know that I DO want them to up stuff on R/E/Ms or absorb them... but then you don't have the pretty weapons anymore D:... anyway

First big comment... was about pretty much keeping consistent players... for that statement as a SALESPERSON... especially when it's on a monthly subscription; it doesn't matter if people use the game for 2 minutes per month or literally are on 24/7 all 4 weeks of the month, so whether or not your a casual player SE still makes money; now conceptually if you look at FFXIAH rankings; people who just have 1 empy not 99 or anything, just 1 empy lvl 80, and some basic missions done (yes I know with guildwork app, and not everyone using it isn't autoloaded to everyone but then that can go both ways, but for our sakes we're just talking about NA, general FFXIAH users, and using general phoenix data); you can jump from #931 all the way to about 500... that means that there are about 40% that have a lvl 80 empy... which is good, now take about 20% of that for mules so about 80% of all people have empys... now you look even closer when you get 2 empys, and sometimes a relic with a lot of missions done you get to about #300, which means that 30% of everyone has a relic or 2 empys~, anyway you get my point most people don't have a lot of relics... there are a lot of empys but a lot more people than not just have 1 empy... relics are still hard yes, which is why I do agree they do need to + the dmg on them, but the delve weapons were a good idea, simply because it's obvious and I can't wait for the census to come out so I can see what the Empy/relic/mythic amount for last year was.

Next point: the 2 hours a week... obviously if you're playing 2 hours a week again... they don't care, they get paid the 13.00 a month anyway, I can't tell you when I was in my HORRIFIC time in my life I still paid that and basically NEVER played... there were a few months I didn't pay, but ever since I was able to handle all that I've been on at least 50~ hours a week (that's been for like about 2 years now).

Last point: This game still isn't wow, I personally don't play wow because it's too cartooney, and XI came out first and XI is wayyy better, through and through even still with this /shocked creator. and through and through it still really only affects 1% of people unless you have a 99 R/E/M, I know a ton of people with just 95, and the people with 99 are in the already super crazy established linkshells that would succeed with or without their R/E/Ms, I've talked to a lot of them and IN GAME, not in forums they don't care that there are better weapons, they can't get their hands on them.

[Aequis]

They're talking about FFXIV Cuz new producer is busy doing FFXIV stuff and unable to address this issue in XI atm.

/sigh another mistake SE made, made me lost faith in FFXIV too.

FFXIV and its producer (Yoshida) are not connected to FFXI or its producer (Matsui), insofar as they don't have anything to do with each other's jobs. If anything, Yoshida may have learned valuable experience in what not to do in certain situations with his game, but look at what it's cost Matsui.

Please don't let what happens in XI colour your judgement in XIV. They are completely separate games.

In general, they were also right to delete some of the very offensive posts. I hate this new update too, but if you're going to get angry, do it at Square Enix as a company and not Matsui as an individual. No single person deserves that, despite all the bad calls he's making...

It's not even about R/E/M for me since none of mine are lv99 yet. It's the way they made almost everything before SoA obsolete in one small update, or the way we've been thrown onto this high-speed conveyor belt of gear progression. Out two months (barely weeks due to access issues) and already the Naakuul fights have been reduced to a stepping stone you need for Delve access.

I didn't ask for all of my goals-in-progress to be made a waste of time and I'm sure no-one else in the same position did. This is the true reason most people are upset. The motivation has gone and we're left wondering, "Why bother?". That, I believe, is impossible for Square Enix to turn around right now.

[Afania]

Enough with the imaginary math already. C'mon.
I apologize. It's obvious English isn't your first language. But to your point, tell me, do you know the damage percentage difference between those two jobs with said weapons, or are you just parroting something you read? If you can accurately break that down, then, maybe, we can have a discussion.

Ok so you want numbers and I give you numbers. Note that I have no DD job, so I'm pretty sure my set isn't optimal and probably have some "confused" choice. If you're more familiar with the job you're free to give me better set to see if the result is different(and I doubt it)

Target: Ig-alima, 10% def down, double march, 25% chaos, 16% DA, STR DEX crit-hit merit full. RCB

DRK/SAM TP:
OAT/pole/Bomb core
Bale+2/bale neck/brutal/bale
Perle/bale+2/Rajas/hoard
atheling/goading/jingang/ace

22% haste total

DRK/SAM reso:
OAT/Pole/Fracas
Mekira NQ/gorget/brutal/moonshade
Twilight/avant+1/rajas/spiral
Atheling/ele/bale+2/bale+2

Basically Abyssea level of DRK with just +2 and perle, no expensive gear.

WS dmg:1473
Set DPS:197
Combined DPS 145

V.S

DRG/SAM

TP:
OAT/pole grip/hagneia stone
Phorcys/ganesha/brutal/Ghillie +1
Enif/ogier/rajas/tyrant
Atheling/goading/phorcys/Lancer +2

26% haste


Stardiver WS:
OAT/Pole/thew
Mekira +1/gorget/brutal/moonshade
Lancer+2/Lancer+2/rajas/pyrosoul
Atheling/ele belt/lancer+2/Wyrm +2(not sure how high augment of heca's can go)

Basically it's a DRG with gear that's 1 tier better, with NNI gear and more expensive rings.

WS dmg:1000
Set DPS:187
Combined DPS:120

So a DRG with MUCH better gear still can't compare with a perle DRK with 0 endgame experience.

You can give me better sets for both jobs to see if the result changes, but until you're able to give me the result to prove that DRG can keep up with DRK with no R/E/M on higher lv target, you're the one that's clueless about this issue.

[Afania]

FFXIV and its producer (Yoshida) are not connected to FFXI or its producer (Matsui), insofar as they don't have anything to do with each other's jobs. If anything, Yoshida may have learned valuable experience in what not to do in certain situations with his game, but look at what it's cost Matsui.

Please don't let what happens in XI colour your judgement in XIV. They are completely separate games.

FFXI and XIV are made by same company, shared the same brand, this is not avoidable. Even though it's 2 different project, it still tied to each other and you can't seperate it, thats the reality of marketing.

If FFXI pulled off bad decision to piss off core customer base like this, maybe one day FFXIV would do the same. So before I play FFXIV I'd think twice before investing my time in this product.

Blizzard and WoW is the same, if Blizzard fuck up their 1 title, do you think it won't affect future titles? It will.

[Kitkat]

I understand the delicacy of this discussion and everyone's feelings on the matter; however, please keep in mind that Producer Matsui has indicated that all of this is no where near finalized at this point and they are still in the early discussion phase.

With that said, there have been quite a few posts that we have had to remove due to inappropriate language, so please keep this in mind when making a reply to this thread.

As always, I will be doing all that I can so that your opinions are delivered to the development team and rest assured that your voice is being heard.

Camate
It has nothing to do with it not being finalized and everything to do with the fact it is a poorly realized plan. As stated in my prior post, unless it could transfer all of the perks over for the user to maintain (Hidden ODD/OTD, Aftermath, WS, etc) it is a very bad move to not simply enhance the weapon. Plain and simple: We don't want this plan finalized at all - especially when the person telling it to use can't even tell us if it is possible to transfer all the reasons people made these weapons for in the first place.

I can tell you right now I didn't make my Mandau and Almace just for a WS. I made them because they increased the over all damage output for the jobs I play and can equip the weapons. Back at 75 it didn't get any better than Mandau and it was made relevant even at 99 because developers took the time and effort to instate trials that brought the weapon up to par with the new kids in the play ground (Emp weapons).

Mythic weapons went through a transformation of their own that made them extremely well balanced as endgame weapons as well. Boost to the Mythic weapon skills that weren't very strong to begin with, enhanced the aftermath making some of these better than any other endgame weapon (including relic and emp), and further increased the "enhances X job ability." Needless to say these weapons took an extremely long time to make in comparison to other weapons for a long while also due to the types of requirements each player had to go through to get them done.

Emp. Weapons came and stole the lime-light for a decent while, and in some cases are still a pretty mean weapon in the hands of a well geared player. Up to the 90 stage is not very difficult, but does take time to do. It gets fairly ridiculous once you work on the 95-99 stage as this part starts to heavily rely on players to continue doing VWNM, but with recent updates you are effectively making it totally pointless for players to continue doing these events by totally negating the gear that comes from these events. This means that players also will stop doing them enmass to get plates that they then turn around and sell to other players working on the final stages of Emp weapons. Additionally, these weapons give the largest chunk of +stat that works for the WS in some cases by 99 (+20).

Last but not least, the famous afterglow effect; something developers added to these weapons to give players the incentive to really go above and beyond so they had the absolute best of the best and something to show for it. This Idea totally tramples on the players who dragged other players along for hours of farming up pop items then fighting to attain the necessary materials to eventually get to this point. Now you are telling these players that they wasted their time because you are planning on negating their effort in place of allowing them to use the weaponskill and maybe the aftermath at the least rather than keep their weapons relevant in the long run? Isn't that sort of a slap to the face of not just the playerbase but the developers who left it this way because they had not intention of making the weapons obsolete due to the time and effort to make them?

Camate, please make sure that Matsui is made very aware of how displeased we players are with this idea so that they possibly stop working on it all together in favor of a better alternative. I'm sorry, but you don't make players spend years building and enhancing these weapons then simply tell them "we aren't planning to continue Magian trials to enhance weapons, and we are thinking of making legendary weapons obsolete but we'll let you keep the WS for all your hard work!"

[Cahlum]

Can people please stop suggesting ways to make transferring WS aftermath etc over to our new weapons.

Do you really want your weapon to become nothing more than a mannequin's weapon.

Anything short of a base DMG increase on the REM or a nerf to Delve weapon dmg is not acceptable.

[Afania]

First big comment... was about pretty much keeping consistent players... for that statement as a SALESPERSON... especially when it's on a monthly subscription; it doesn't matter if people use the game for 2 minutes per month or literally are on 24/7 all 4 weeks of the month, so whether or not your a casual player SE still makes money

Actually it does matter for MMO. If player A that's active but only play 2 hours a week and no set schedule/static, then he is less involved in this game than player B that's active and log on everyday to do event.

If you look at the numbers, they pay same $13 a month and they have same contribution, but in reality, player A isn't a stable customer, they can cancel account for any reason. I've seen players like this for years, they play on and off, doesn't care about progress. Sometimes they're just returning player missing this game, but unable to get involved due to lack of time. They don't have any static nor connection, and not involved in LS events. They can go to any other MMO if new MMO released, and never come back. And they would cancel their account to save money if they get real busy.

Most important of all, if SE going to release a harder content that requires an alliance, they will not join. They may join once or twice for fun, but they will never get involved and static with anyone because they can't and don't want to.

On the other hand, those who owns 95+ R/E/M, maybe have a mule or 2(so yes, more income for SE too), often have a static a couple of days a week. So they won't quit just that easily, even there's another new MMO.

If SE going to release more content, it's those dedicated that would go for it, not those less involved in this game, period. Because I've seen enough come and go players that never made it to +2 /empy stage and quit, nor interested in ANY newer event. Resetting gears won't appeal them, because the main purpose to reset gears is to get them to do newer/harder content, which they're not interested to begin with.

From salesperson's prospective, you want to keep dedicated players around, and try to make casual players involved, instead of just come and go.

And once all that dedicated players left, there are no reason come and go players don't come and go faster when everything gets harder.

My LS is full of come and go players, at least 90% of them are. They've been doing Abyssea since it's out, and still doing Abyssea now, because they come and go so those players are replaced every once a while.

As one of the player that doesn't come and go, I often drag them to static with me, or help them get gears, things like this sometimes get them involved in the game and less likely to come and go anymore. So out of maybe 20 come and go players, 1 stayed and joined a static, and became a more stable customer.

Say if I leave, so does every other dedicated players in same LS. Those come and go players won't have anyone to static with for any harder content, and they just come and go faster. Do you think erasing the concept of R/E/M made them stay? No. Ppl in my LS still do Abyssea and CN party, they rarely go to SoA area, ever, even after SoA release. And they certainly have no intention to deal with delve/reive NMs, nor hitting tree root for 2hr even if there are no R/E/M. They need a static to do event to stay, they need someone ask them "wanna do delve every day at 9PM?", they need a push from more dedicated players, then maybe one day when they have the resources they'd become dedicated players themselves.

And now they just likely to leave faster because even if they do have the time to become a more dedicated player, they won't find anyone to do event with, and would just ended up quitting for another game.

tl;dr

If I'm managing an MMO, I don't want players that pay $13 a months that may* cancel sub anytime they want. I want players that pay $13 a month, and often drag more friends to pay more $13 a month to play together, and I want players willing to pay more than $13 a month for mules. Paying for $13 a month but may cancel anytime just isn't what I would aim for

[Draylo]

Why is this in the "early" stages? Shouldn't something have been thought of when these weapons were created...?