Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

[JackDaniels]

Yeah man. I'm sorry, dev team, but you really are running out of time here. You shouldn't promise things you don't know if you can deliver.

"For real real gaiz!"

If that is the case, I think my FFXI days may be over. I don't mean to sound overly dramatic, but this change is so ridiculous. Not only does it show a lack of understanding about how we actually play this game, but it also shows that they aren't listening to the players at all. Also, effectively ruining the solo capability of a job that has been the same way since it's inception is just more than I can stomach.

SAYYY IT AINT SO

[jake3614]

I'm sorry, I'm going to be quite rude here.

You've been receiving our feedback and making plans for summoner for the past 8-9 years yet all we've gotten is Fenrir (decent concept no longer relevant) Diabolos (worthless other then Netherblast for Kirin years ago) Odin/Alexander (2hrs that were suppose to be actual avatars)

Now you told us Cait and Atomos would be avatars but we've gotten nothing.

Stop sugar coating it. You don't like SMN because it requires too many resources to create new content for and it's such a unique class that it also requires specific gear that you don't feel like spending time on.'

Your "plans" to adjust avatars are likely in the
-"oh hey Jim I think we should fix avatars they seem broken"
-"oh yeah you're right bob, lets do that some day"

Save for maybe a random mention at a meeting, I doubt you've done crap.

And that Cait video you posted? Honestly I could swap some dat files and I'd have what you showed us, and I'm guessing that's all you actually did.

I really want to start cussing at the dev team for even attempting a post like this, too bad it's not allowed. I honestly find it insulting.

I think I love you.

[Genoxd]

I agree that it seems like very weak reasoning.

Back in the Dark Ages of XP, when we leveled up via VT-IT mobs (man, those were the days, huh?) it was a good thing when avatars stole hate for a few moments. Tank wasn't beat on, healer didn't need to spam cures, and Summoners got to feel like something other than a /whm for a few moments.

I can actually think of one time when it might matter - on mobs with direction based TP moves (e.g. Spike Flail). That's really the only time I can think of, and the problems with that can be easily be ameliorated by a Summoner who knows what they're doing.



I don't see enmity transfer on avatar death being a good path for Summoner. For example, it would be the death of avatar kiting, unless they also give us an ability to transfer that hate to a fresh avatar. And given that avatars are rather flimsy, the ability would have to have such a short cool down as to make you wonder why they even bothered to have the hate transfer in the first place...

In a group scenario, as the fight dragged on, we would eventually wind up near the top of the hate list, which would drag the mob way away from the front line and over to the support team. One good (read: nasty, annoyingly timed) AoE would then have the back line in disarray.

I don't want to have to go off to the special Summoner-gets-killed corner all by myself...

Do you mean like BLM SCH WHM RDM GEO? Are those the ones you're worried about? News flash, they already pull more then enough hate nuking and curing. Have you seen the enmity generated from debuffs? We don't stand a chance at pulling hate over any of those mages.

Assuming it was a long fight and Cumulative Enmity managed to cap, the way SMN currently stands there would be no way for it to build Volatile Enmity fast enough. 45 sec is too long between BPs and we do far too little damage. On top of that, if we let our avatars die instead of dismiss them it's likely the damage they take would wipe all the CE they'd have accumulated leaving us with only VE to deal with. Considering a SMN acting as a SMN (no healing and such) generates virtually no hate. There is little to no chance that we'd actually pull hate unless all the other mages were dead and the tank and all melee died.

[Mokeil]

Pretty sure that the avatar taking hate is what SE doesn't want, and what we want is irrelevant.

Ain't that the truth....

Adjustments have been made recently to AOE damage for players/pets that aren't the main target, so I can only assume that SE doesn't want the avatar to be taking hate and allowing the players to get away with minimal damage.

Did that happen already? I thought that was one of those "this is what we're maybe thinking of implementing sometime in the future" type things.

[Mokeil]

Assuming it was a long fight and Cumulative Enmity managed to cap, the way SMN currently stands there would be no way for it to build Volatile Enmity fast enough. 45 sec is too long between BPs and we do far too little damage.

I thought that your proposed hate transfer was supposed to accompany some sort of increase in avatar performance - likely with a focus in the areas of damage generating and defense. In light of this, I wasn't speaking of an "as SMN currently stands" scenario, but one in which our avatars are far more competitive in output.

[Genoxd]

I thought that your proposed hate transfer was supposed to accompany some sort of increase in avatar performance - likely with a focus in the areas of damage generating and defense. In light of this, I wasn't speaking of an "as SMN currently stands" scenario, but one in which our avatars are far more competitive in output.

Assuming an Avatar could actually keep up in damage with the top DD then yes they would eventually target the SMN. That said, we had issues like this in the past before Abyssea where everyone forgot how to play. Cure has a range of approximately 20 yalms (or 21 I forget) and there's no reason SMNs and other mages can't separate. Most AoE are in the 10-15 range however some do go to 20 or even 30. It is quite easy to have Healers in 1 area 20ish yalms from the DD and at the same time 20 yalms from the SMN (and I assume BLM and other DD mages who will take hate)

Healers can heal DD and mages as needed yet both stay out of the shorter range AoEs and it becomes quite easy to avoid the 20 yalm AoEs. 30+ depends on speed of attack and such. This isn't hard people, we did all of this in the past. Remember fighting dragons or KB?

absolutely horrible paint.net drawing in spoiler depicting such a situation.

Also yes SMN is going to die more often if they take hate, but honestly who cares? Is not dying worth sucking?

[Areayea]

Also yes SMN is going to die more often if they take hate, but honestly who cares? Is not dying worth sucking?

Dieing used to be a much bigger deal than it is now... don't forget no matter what job you were on you HAD to Meripo at 75~ now exp comes in bountiful amounts EVERYWHERE.

[Mokeil]

Is not dying worth sucking?

An interesting question, to be sure. Generally, players wish to perform at the highest level they can that doesn't end up with them taking a dirt nap. A dead or weakened player can't contribute as well as a healthy one, after all. Admittedly, this is less of an issue for Summoners and Beastmasters, as they can pull out a fresh, full powered pet at any time.

All the same, whatever other means by which we're contributing to the fight will be impacted, be it via meleeing or supporting via spells from our support jobs. Additionally, I still feel we'd find ourselves holding back while weakend, as Summoner's low HP compounded with being weakened will leave us open to being one-shot by a stray breeze.

Ultimately, the answer will entirely depend on how such a system would be implemented. I can envision scenarios in which it solves all our problems. I can, however, envision far more scenarios in which it makes more problems for us than it solves, as even our ability to solo/duo/trio NMs is smashed apart. SE's track record for drastic changes is fairly spotty, and I'm not sure they can get the balance right.

[Tannlore]

Well according to this:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...d=1#post432203

One of our fixes are grips with avatar stats on them.... These better be some Freakishly awesome stats.

[Mokeil]

One of our fixes are grips with avatar stats on them.... These better be some Freakishly awesome stats.

Pup did get an animator that grants +70 to all of an automaton's stats. Something along those lines would make a good start at catching us up. I just hope they're not all from Delve only...

The Follow-up to Level 99 RME thread also mentions that WoE weapons will likely be used to unlock the weapon skills. Being able to use Myrkr with any staff would be fairly nifty.

Also: SE Dev/Rep guys? You gave us something more concrete to go on, as well as a reasonable time frame to expect these changes in. Thank You.