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  1. #21
    Player Jackstin's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Okay, neglected was clearly the wrong word, but you know what I was saying. In fact what I was saying was in agreement with your general sentiment. Is it any wonder you have a reputation as being a conservative argumentative ass hat?

    EDIT: In fact I feel I have to clarify why I'm saying what I'm saying, in case it is taken as an attack without warrant.

    If you agree that Summoner is weaker than intended, even if you don't agree that the job is totally worthless, what is the point in arguing? Do you really love being contrarian so much that you will argue against something you more or less agree with?
    (5)
    Last edited by Jackstin; 04-15-2013 at 07:45 AM.

  2. #22
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    6,987
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstin View Post
    Okay, neglected was clearly the wrong word, but you know what I was saying. In fact what I was saying was in agreement with your general sentiment. Is it any wonder you have a reputation as being a conservative argumentative ass hat?
    lol... I'm not conservative at all. In fact, I to lean in the opposite direction. I'm more defensive than argumentative, because I'm usually under attack and forced into a defensive position. Rarely if ever am I the initiator of a conflict.

    I also don't make personal attacks against others. So are we going to turn this into another let's gangbang on Al thread?

    If you agree that Summoner is weaker than intended, even if you don't agree that the job is totally worthless, what is the point in arguing? Do you really love being contrarian so much that you will argue against something you more or less agree with?
    I don't love being "contrarian," and I don't love arguing. I participate in discussions because I have a genuine interest, not just to argue for the hell of it.

    I really just don't see the implied undesireability of summoner, especially expressed as Karbuncle has. I find myself using it more since this expansion came out than I had in a long time prior. It's great in rieves in particular, where you can hit everyone with buffs regardless of party (I think people fail to realize just how much damage inferno howl adds or how useful other SMN AoEs can be in this event). It's also more convenient than DNC for me to get around the areas easily (fleet wind + s / i is a lot easier than trying to use both jigs).

    I'll agree that I wish the job did more damage, but from a balance perspective, is it fair for the job to both do awesome damage and have a bunch of support/enfeeble abilities on top of that? I've never understood why some people regard SMN's support abilities with such disdain.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 04-15-2013 at 07:54 AM.

  3. #23
    Player RAIST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    It's NOT a summoenr specific issue- it's an issue with the enmity system as a whole, and when they fix the enmity issues, the SMN issue will go away. I totally agree it's CAUSES problems for SMN, but the root issue here is not SMN itself. It's the enmity system. Also you say it affects SMN more than the other pets, well that's poppycock. The only reason it doesn't affect PUP so greatly is Ventriloqouy and you don't typically try to make the pet tank in the first place.

    THAT's what I'm saying. It's not intended to screw summoner, the changes weren't targeting it, it's simply poor planning/testing on their part.

    This BUG also has nothing to do with why the OP was saying SMN sucks and is worse than the other pet jobs.
    No, there is a specific issue with SMN....or did you not consider the issues with scaling? That is directly in line with what the OP is talking about.

    Avatar's have a flatter increase to stats as your SMN levels in contrast to other pet jobs. Compare them to the other pets...there is an obvious disparity to how Avatars have scaled since level 75. With a couple exception, their best attacks are still essentially level 70/75, subject to sub-par INT/STR/DEX and other modifiers--so much that it sometimes requires TP build up, well timed massive gear swaps, and praying the gods shine on you with /random calculations for the latent effects on some of that gear to kick in.

    If the pets had proper scaling over the last 24 levels, the recent changes would have had NOWHERE near the impact they do.
    (0)
    {DISCLAIMER} Posts may contain opinions based on personal experiences that are not be meant to be taken as facts. What may appear as fact with no source reference may be recollection of information with no source, and may be subject to scrutiny without source reference. Any debate over validity of said facts without source references may be considered conjecture of all parties in that debate. Player comments may not be the expressed position/consent of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said organizations. Please take these posts with a grain of salt if you are offended by the views of the player and understand that opinions are like assholes... everyone has one, not everyone wants to hear it.

  4. #24
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    6,987
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    No, there is a specific issue with SMN....or did you not consider the issues with scaling? That is directly in line with what the OP is talking about.
    ... are we going to go back and forth with this all day?

    It is not a summoner specific issue. it's an enmity system issue that doesn't treat SMN any differently than any other job. There is nothing in the system that says "if the player's job is SMN, screw him to hell." it is a side effect of the enmity system revisions. It is not a direct problem directly applied to SMN.

    With a couple exception, their best attacks are still essentially level 70/75, subject to sub-par INT/STR/DEX and other modifiers
    I don't disagree that this is an issue, but this has nothing to do with the enmity system- this is a separate issue entirely.

    Are we just sorely miss-communicating to each other here or something?

    I didn't say there were no issues with SMN. I said (the "It" which your quote is referring to) that the ENMITY issue was NOT a summoner specific issue- Meaning the enmity changes they made in the update are all farked up- it was not a specific change directed at SMN.

    Sometimes I feel like people are purposely misrepresenting what I say to argue against me. Yet I'm the one who gets accused of everything.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 04-15-2013 at 08:01 AM.

  5. #25
    Player RAIST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    ... are we going to go back and forth with this all day?

    It is not a summoner specific issue. it's an enmity system issue that doesn't treat SMN any differently than any other job. There is nothing in the system that says "if the player's job is SMN, screw him to hell." it is a side effect of the enmity system revisions. It is not a direct problem directly applied to SMN.

    I don't disagree that this is an issue, but this has nothing to do with the enmity system- this is a seperate issue entirely.

    Are we just sorely miscommunicating to each other here or something?

    I didn't say there were no issues with SMN. I said that the ENMITY issue was NOT a summoner specific issue- Meaning the enmity changes they made in the update are all farked up- it was not a specific change directed at SMN.
    Ahhh... now I think we are finally seeing the problem. Apparently, there is a failure to communicate.

    Other pets jobs are not as adversely affected by the change because their pets have scaled more appropriately over time in comparison to how avatars have scaled.

    Because of this disparity, avatars enmity is all over the place because the weaker stats are skewing the enimty generation/decay all over the map in comparison.

    Therefore, Avatars are too weak in comparison to other pets---the problems have been there for a long time now, but were more manageable until these recent changes. Previously, it was just a nuisance that we dealt with, but this update has focused a magnifying glass on the issue because it is just ridiculously skewed now. So, people are shouting
    I'm mad as hell, and I'm not taking anymore!!
    So yeah, in a way... it IS in fact more a SMN releated issue, even when talking solely about the enmity changes (it is more than that, it's a combination of enmity, ATT/DEF ratio, and lack of scaling...but fixing the last changes a lot of the impact of the other two)--simply because the other jobs have a means to better remedy the situation (as you even mentioned yourself with the use of Ventriloquy). SMN has no recourse but to take the beatings and hope not to die.
    (4)
    Last edited by RAIST; 04-15-2013 at 08:09 AM.
    {DISCLAIMER} Posts may contain opinions based on personal experiences that are not be meant to be taken as facts. What may appear as fact with no source reference may be recollection of information with no source, and may be subject to scrutiny without source reference. Any debate over validity of said facts without source references may be considered conjecture of all parties in that debate. Player comments may not be the expressed position/consent of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said organizations. Please take these posts with a grain of salt if you are offended by the views of the player and understand that opinions are like assholes... everyone has one, not everyone wants to hear it.

  6. #26
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by RAIST View Post
    Ahhh... now I think we are finally seeing the problem. Apparently, there is a failure to communicate.

    Other pets jobs are not as adversely affected by the change because their pets have scaled more appropriately over time in comparison to how avatars have scaled.

    Because of this disparity, avatars enimity is all over the place because the weaker stats are skewing the enimty generation/decay all over the map in comparison.

    Therefore, Avatars are too weak in comparison to other pets---the problems have been there for a long time now, but were more manageable until these recent changes. Previously, it was just a nuisance that we dealt with, but this update has focused a magnifying glass on the issue because it is just ridiculously skewed now. So, people are shouting
    Now your response is more clear.

    Can you actually show that the avatar's attributes (str/int/etc) have not scaled at the same porportion as everything else?.

    I do agree that three new attacks, none of which are for the "main" avatars, was the most disappointing thing about the trip to 99.

    The main issue I had with the comments in the thread "smn is awful / smn is neglected" is it screams "QQ waah my job sucks" because the only problem illustrated by the OP was a subjective rating of a few things about each job's pet and it's something of a falsehood to suggest that SMN has not been recieving its fair share of updates over the years (Whether or not we feel they were effective enough) and that the only thing left to do is scream until something is done.

    (In short: some of the complaints in this thread [especially the OP's] read more like QQ boo hoo rather than sound objective criticisms)
    (2)

  7. #27
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Demon6324236 View Post
    take away SCH's Embrava, its a job no one wants around
    SCH is still useful outside of Embrava. It has almost the non-AoE healing power of White Mage and almost the non-AoE nuking power of Black Mage. If it has a major flaw it is that it can't have Haste and Stun at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    Summoner is not a neglected job.
    Most jobs in FFXI have some part that is neglected.

    I could give all sorts of examples, such as with White Mage, one of the jobs that is often considered higher tier then others, Afflatus Misery sucks pretty badly, we were "promised" Banish IV before Cait Sith was even mentioned, it took over a full year from finding out the new cure formula (which itself took a bit of time after they put it on the test server) to them telling Japanese players (they never even translated it officially) that Cure VI is only really intended as an emergency cure, and I could go on down the list.

    But of course, perhaps I'm able to rattle off a list of things that are neglected I'm talking about another mage job, pet jobs are known for being slightly neglected but mage jobs are generally in worse shape in FFXI, and Summoner is both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    (and calling yourself the "realer summoner")
    What new lows can we descend to next?
    (0)

  8. #28
    Player RAIST's Avatar
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    Just go play the jobs. They were documented as having gimped INT back at 75 (BLM with only 82 INT) , base magic damage was 512 for merit BP, less for T2/T4. No one ever bothered to try to reverse engineer all the stats back then, doubt anyone is going to now either. It can be seen clearly simply by playing the job.

    When it is easy to pull hate off a mob simply by whacking it a few times with a -perp staff after your avatar has used it's BEST blood pact.....yeah, there is a problem with your avatar's stats. Don't even have to hit it.. just recast Haste, SS, or Regen and it comes at you. By comparison, when I pull hate on BST after a WS, I just snarl it away, beat on it a while, WS, snarl... rinse/repeat.
    (0)
    Last edited by RAIST; 04-15-2013 at 08:30 AM.
    {DISCLAIMER} Posts may contain opinions based on personal experiences that are not be meant to be taken as facts. What may appear as fact with no source reference may be recollection of information with no source, and may be subject to scrutiny without source reference. Any debate over validity of said facts without source references may be considered conjecture of all parties in that debate. Player comments may not be the expressed position/consent of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said organizations. Please take these posts with a grain of salt if you are offended by the views of the player and understand that opinions are like assholes... everyone has one, not everyone wants to hear it.

  9. #29
    Player Alhanelem's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    6,987
    Character
    Tahngarthor
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    [QUOTE
    But of course, perhaps I'm able to rattle off a list of things that are neglected I'm talking about another mage job, pet jobs are known for being slightly neglected but mage jobs are generally in worse shape in FFXI, and Summoner is both. ][/QUOTE]Obviously we don't see "neglected" as meaning the same thing. If the Dev team sees issues and addresses them (Which they have) it isn't being neglected. It's fine for you to mention specific issues, but speaking as a whole the job isn't any more neglected than any other. It gets additions and updates with the same regularity as most other jobs.

    When I see "neglected", that's what I'm thinking about. "neglected" itself doesn't say "this job sucks", it means "We haven't touched it in a while." They have touched it, just not necessarily in the specific ways some people wish.

    Context is critical. If you're not specific with what you mean, I'm not going to "get it."
    (0)
    Last edited by Alhanelem; 04-15-2013 at 08:36 AM.

  10. #30
    Player hideka's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    482
    Character
    Hideka
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    inbe4 moved to summoner board

    Your arbitrary ratings are based on nothing but your opinions and some are flat out wrong. Are you really trying to tell me that a pet that has a wait time of up to a minute to resummon is more disposable than a pet that has a 8 second recast?

    You can not throw puppets at mobs like you can throw avatars at them. This fact alone is why SMN (and BST) are highly preferable for these circumstances (e.g. walk of echoes)

    SE hasn't been avoiding summoner and has made some adjustment or another in almost every update which contains job adjustments.

    If nothing else we certainly know we have a good 2nd SP ability coming.

    The only thing they HAVE been avoiding, which I AM bitter about, is Cait Sith and Atomos. They announced those well over a year ago and there's still no sign that they're coming.

    one more edit: Let me ask one more question: Of these three jobs, which one is the most asked for by the community for any content? Answer: Summoner.
    i agree with you on the disposability, but i think ive made a fair evaluation of everything else. SMN should be S rank disposablilty and Pup should be A rank.

    i don't know what your talking about pup not being able to throw autos in there... i can throw valor edge into a WOE battle all day long >_> between 32% Pet PDT, Schurzen, Barrier module, equalizer , auto repair I&II, and oils, i rarely lose a robot. oh and a good vit Maneuver build helps alot.


    the adjustments SE has made to summoner since Avatars favor and upper level pacts:
    1: Spirit perpetuation costs
    2: Spirit Merits
    3: Nerfing P Defense.
    stop me if ive missed something crucial here... these are "oh hey, we need to give them something just to say we did" updates.

    smn needs more work than any job in this game, other than RUN and GEO, but they dont count since they havent been in the game for the last decade.
    (4)

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