Dragoon Endgame Lances

[Hawklaser]

So you gear your DRG to do slightly less damage than the tank, so you don't pull hate? An interesting choice. Might as well just take a party of PLDs or NINs. But hey, a choice is a choice.

It's not so much as doing less damage then the tank, but knowing how to keep from creating hate faster than the tank. Does no good doing extremely high damage if it starts getting you or others in your group killed. DRG actually can push the envelope on this more thanks to its built in hate shedding mechanics, too bad its hard to actually hit that point without some of the best gear as is.

But back to lances, curious now as to whats going to happen with weapons in general once the new delve patch weapons become more common, as at a quick glance they look to outstrip every weapon by a nice margin, as that large of damage jump is hard to make up in secondary effects alone.

[Umichi]

I'm going after the NQ polearm until i finish my Relic, Being on an average level of play obtaining the really high up lance might be hard for me doable but a work in progress

[Babekeke]

It's not so much as doing less damage then the tank, but knowing how to keep from creating hate faster than the tank. Does no good doing extremely high damage if it starts getting you or others in your group killed. DRG actually can push the envelope on this more thanks to its built in hate shedding mechanics, too bad its hard to actually hit that point without some of the best gear as is.

This isn't what he was saying at all though. He said he decides whether it's better to build for haste/store TP or whether it's better to gear to take less hate. DRG is great (the best job) at dealing a ton of damage in as short a space of time as possible, and then shedding either all of it (super Jump) or in desperate cases, half of it through high jump.

DRG also has access to a lot of -PDT gear and -MDT gear to help with damage mitigation. Seigan and third eye when outside VW or a perfect defense zerg, and can anticipate taking a large amount of damage and ready healing breath.

Only when all of these fail, or your mages run out of MP to cure, should you then thinking about stopping dealing damage at the fastest rate, and get completely out of AOE range. Hitting the mob more slowly is never the correct option.

[Hawklaser]

This isn't what he was saying at all though. He said he decides whether it's better to build for haste/store TP or whether it's better to gear to take less hate. DRG is great (the best job) at dealing a ton of damage in as short a space of time as possible, and then shedding either all of it (super Jump) or in desperate cases, half of it through high jump.

To me it looked like he was talking more about how he geared around the play style he enjoyed the best, or wanted to try out. I was commenting more about your comment of him gearing to do less damage than the tank.

But yeah, DRG has always been great at pushing that line of almost pulling hate, which is where a good DD player wants to be. Also Super Jump has more utility than just dumping hate, like avoiding high damage attacks moves that get telegraphed, though got to weigh the damage avoidance vs hate dump if things look like can go ugly. As usually better for a DD to go down instead of a healer if things go south.

And for some mobs, hitting them more slowly is indeed the best option at points. Just look at some of the NM's in Abyssea that will spam TP moves if you hit them at the wrong time. Also if have to put on defensive gear, you end up usually doing less damage too, which usually ends up with the same effect of the mob dying slower. This is more of just pointing out the "Hitting the mob more slowly is never the correct option" is wrong, mostly because of one word, never. As a good DD knows when they need to back off the mob either by equipping defensive options to help healers out, or just to avoid causing dangerous situations, and we have a great example of that in the chaos Spike Flail caused in certain fights.



Problem with lances having currently is more of how much to keep working for a R/M/E than saving up/farming for some of the new stuff. All really hinges on the future of R/M/E's really.

[Umichi]

This isn't what he was saying at all though. He said he decides whether it's better to build for haste/store TP or whether it's better to gear to take less hate. DRG is great (the best job) at dealing a ton of damage in as short a space of time as possible, and then shedding either all of it (super Jump) or in desperate cases, half of it through high jump.

DRG also has access to a lot of -PDT gear and -MDT gear to help with damage mitigation. Seigan and third eye when outside VW or a perfect defense zerg, and can anticipate taking a large amount of damage and ready healing breath.

Only when all of these fail, or your mages run out of MP to cure, should you then thinking about stopping dealing damage at the fastest rate, and get completely out of AOE range. Hitting the mob more slowly is never the correct option.

To clear up any confusion i was just giving an exaqmple of something i might think of it's not exactly how i play. And how is fighting until the monster turns on you a good idea in a scenario where (especially now with attack:def ratio adjustment) one solid mele hit could prolly connect and kill you.)

[detlef]

You better not make that Gungnir then, it'll probably make you do way too much damage and you will pull hate and die.

[Babekeke]

This is more of just pointing out the "Hitting the mob more slowly is never the correct option" is wrong, mostly because of one word, never.

OK, I take it back. Not never, just never unless you are tanking something that you really shouldn't be. A DD should never be hitting the mob slowly unless they are tanking and having to use full -DT gear. If there is someone else tanking, the DD should be either going all out, or be out of AOE range. For DRG in particular, this could mean run in, WS, soul jump, WS, spirit jump, WS get out of AOE range and wait for timers. But you should never be in AOE range unless you're doing as much damage as you can, or you're tanking

Problem with lances having currently is more of how much to keep working for a R/M/E than saving up/farming for some of the new stuff. All really hinges on the future of R/M/E's really.

Save gil now and decide when you have saved up enough to make a r/m/e whether you want to go through with it, or whether you want to buy a new crafted weapon.

[Umichi]

You better not make that Gungnir then, it'll probably make you do way too much damage and you will pull hate and die.

I'm pretty good at balancing out my damage and enmity, jumps help, and if all else fails I slow down to white hits and start aiming for high one hitters, which Gugnir is good at.

[Babekeke]

So, Back on topic of the title of the thread, what does everyone think about Ophidian Trident?

To me it seems kind of moot:

Though it has higher damage than any previously available polearm, it has considerably lower delay. Whilst this is nice for max DoT, it means less TP from Jumps, and therefore losing the ability to get 100% TP within the 3 seconds from the last WS with a single jump, or a jump and 1 swing to self-SC, or just to WS as fast.

Sure the jumps do more damage, the WS do more damage, the melee swings do more damage, but the additional stats on the polearm are worse than just about every other delve weapon. Maybe the acc for wyvern will become useful if they do eventually boost the wyvern's stats significantly so that it deals an amount of damage worth adding to the dragoon's for the sake of a parse.

Then there's the fact that without the absolute top gear, you're lumbered with a 7-hit.

Personally, I'm holding out for the fracture boss polearm.


Edit:
I just did some maths to see how often we can ws (under max haste) when jumps/meditate/sekkanoki are not up...

With a 492 delay weapon and 5-hit, 6.56 seconds. ((492/5)/60)*4. (R/M/E/FB)
With a 396 delay weapon and 6 hit, 6.6 seconds. ((396/5)/60)*5. (D)
With a 396 delay weapon and 7-hit, 7.92 seconds. ((396/5)/60)*6. (D)

To clarify the maths: Weapon Delay/5 gives 80% haste delay. /60 gives time in seconds per swing. *x gives the number of swings required between WS for total swinging time.

[Helldemon]

For people saying Relic = Empy. No, just no. Empy will never beat Relic. I would say the difference between the empy and the relic is even bigger then the difference between the mythic and the relic.

For one, the additional x2.5 proc on relic is always there at a 15% rate. The def down adding to every DD's damage. The 40 acc, if you need it. Geirskogul is a stronger single hit ws if you need it. You can't mention the aftermath on empy because Geirskogul is rarely used and that's far stronger then camlann's. All the empy is, is a high Damage polearm with no other effects.