Red Mages for native duel wield

[Tassidaru]

For those of us that enjoy dd rdm the biggest issue is that to employ full potential dps we are locked into either /nin or /dnc. considering the numbers of jobs that now have native dw, (nin, dnc, thf, blu) it seems a reasonable idea to gain even just DW 1. this would have a massive effect. /war becomes a great dd option, while /sch can be a potent support job, considering that buffs like phalanx t1 enspells and the like are all AoEable centered from the rdm, so with the rdm in with the dds gives great ease of aoe buffing. this could potentially lessen, if not remove, many of the issues rdm, dds in particular, have currently with the job. And would not take much effort from the Dev team. its a win win!

[Sarick]

Why do they need duel wield, wouldn't it be better if they had a high level of fencer trait with better bonuses to acheave the same bonuses one handed or enspells that actually boosted output over duel wielding? I only see people using DW for added damage. RDM has nothing to make it more efferent to single wield such as a real hit multiplier not just a percentage double attack temper.

What I'm saying is if single handed main only was enhanced to exceed DW benefits then players wouldn't need to DW to give the extra output. This could be done by enspells, having a multipliyer trait for using only the main hand as a weapon. Meaning if you have double attack 1 handed its upgraded to 4x, or enspells get doubled/tripled and delay is cut in half.

Don't get to upset about this comment I'm just throwing something out there without doing all the math. If someone decides to look at it then they'll figure out the details. IMHO RDM shouldn't need DW to perform well. It should be treated with something that augments the class greater then it already has available. Frankly, I don't know why they never gave RDM fencer when it's lore has the fighting style of a fencer.

[Tassidaru]

Fencer only gives at most 9% crit rate.
Native DW opens up massive subjob options, and while rdm dd being good w/o dw would be great, Id rather try for something the Devs cant really say their "thats more then we can do right now" crap.

[Aethon]

Dual wield is the best option for DD RDM. Being able to use two weapons with attached bonuses (be it pure dmg, stats, store tp, ect.) far outweighs anything fencer could do for us. Having native DW in some form would open up so much in subjob potential. Even the idea for DW0 and a spell to increase it's potency (like temper for DW) would be great.
RDM could /WAR for berserk and even more double attack. We could go /DRK for last resort (even without the haste) and still have CS stun if needed. /SAM would give store tp and self skillchain abilities.
Best of all, for my personal use, I could finally melee and go /whm to keep my wife (DRG/SAM) happy by keeping us alive easier (note: keeping her alive easier) without a huge drop in my DPS capabilities. (I do so love my /dnc though)

[Cabalabob]

I agree with sarick, I hate that this game basically requires 1 handers to have dual wield if it wants to DD, I feel like dual wield should be more of an alternative for those without shield skill than a must have for all 1 handers. I'd much rather see shields with improved stats to replace the need for off hand weapons, improved fencer for /war levels*, stronger OA2-3 swords, more double attack gear for rdm, add effects to enspells like enlight and endark get, basically stuff that makes rdm swing faster and stronger with 1 weapon than 2.

*I say improved for /war cause then rdm would have the choice of /war for more DD traits or /Mage for more magic traits, /war is a great way for rdm to gain a bunch of DD power and I feel like buffing /war fencer would be better all round in de-emphasising dual wield than simply giving rdm native fencer.

[saevel]

I agree with sarick, I hate that this game basically requires 1 handers to have dual wield if it wants to DD, I feel like dual wield should be more of an alternative for those without shield skill than a must have for all 1 handers. I'd much rather see shields with improved stats to replace the need for off hand weapons, improved fencer for /war levels*, stronger OA2-3 swords, more double attack gear for rdm, add effects to enspells like enlight and endark get, basically stuff that makes rdm swing faster and stronger with 1 weapon than 2.

*I say improved for /war cause then rdm would have the choice of /war for more DD traits or /Mage for more magic traits, /war is a great way for rdm to gain a bunch of DD power and I feel like buffing /war fencer would be better all round in de-emphasising dual wield than simply giving rdm native fencer.

DW III + Suppa offers a 42.8% DPS bonus along with an extra hit during WS over single wielding.

Now sit down and get that through your head for a moment. 42.8% melee damage increase.

Fencer would have to be a +50% damage to rival DW and somehow I don't see that happening ... ever.

The reason DW is brought up so often is that it's the single largest increase in damage capability. The 2nd largest is currently /WAR for Berserk and +10% DA. The combination of those two is the primary reason that MNK (MA instead of DW), NIN, BLU, THF and DNC are able to deal so much more damage then RDM. The secondary reason is the sheer difference in gear levels, though this discussion isn't about gear.

In order to make RDM remotely competitive (as in worth taking along instead of a BLU or DNC) SE would need to introduce native DW or a method for RDM to buff their Attack along with greater gear access (DA / TA / sTP / Haste / Attack / +Crit).

[ManaKing]

Instead of DW, they could look at the jobs that have Shield Mastery and realize that the trait is an absolutely trap. Getting more TP back for blocking is an easy way to stop people from asking what PLD or RDM actually needed out of Shield Mastery to make sword and shield effective. Shield Mastery needed to make PLD and RDM retort on block, not gain a couple extra points of TP >IF< they managed to take damage.

You take 0 damage because you're a beastly PLD or you have stoneskin up all the time because you're a RDM? Well looks like shield mastery did less than nothing for your offense. It gave you the illusion you were going to get something, but then it never happened.

Making Shield Master good is basically all you would have to do to make both PLD and RDM good. This wouldn't be the same as MNK counter, which negates the mobs attack from ever happening. You take the hit and then you retort. It's the same as an attack round and you can benefit from things like double attack and additional affects. You also get full TP from your retort(s).

Further, it is only a powerful tool if the PLD or RDM is actually keeping the mobs attention because as soon as you aren't getting hit, you stop getting extra attacks. Cover makes PLD or RDM/PLD actually useful instead of being a bad JA. And as it should be, PLD has reprisal which means it would be the superior sword and shield user, not to mention Aegis and Ochain are very broken as far as shield mechanics go. Not to mention they get Shield Mastery at lvl 25 vs lvl 87 naturally or 59 with an Adoubeur's Pavise.

For balance purposes, there could be a proc rate to retorts or an internal cooldown. You could only retort mobs that you were targeting. Etc. But just look at WAR and MNK. They can already do this. Why would it be broken for jobs that use Swords and aren't top tier DDs, instead damage jobs that use H2H or GREATAXES to be able to do the same? It's just discrimination honestly.

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P.S. Because RDMs and PLDs aren't discriminatory, PUPs Valoredge should get this too. Mostly because PUP isn't that popular either.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I wouldnt be opposed to single wield, however, dual wield has also the cosmetic/asthetic appeal too so sign me up for this idea!

[Demon6324236]

I want DW, be it normal DW, or my RDM DW Idea from before. The job really needs a melee buff, so it can really be a Jack of all Trades, for now it lacks the melee for that title, and is simply an alternative SCH which is weaker than the original in 95% of cases.

[Sarick]

I think the ones reverting to OMG the fencer example isn't useful was over looking into the concept. Those bonuses needed are what you get in duel wield modified into a single handed bonus to MATCH or exceed duel wield could instead be made. I fear the logic of players sometimes who take raw numbers to critically. It's like algebra where the equations can have variables that determined other numbers that aren't known yet.

A + B = C

When you design a new feature you figure out what those numbers are that make it worth while. You an put the damage potential of dual wield on paper all you want but until the same is done for the alternative none existent ideas your math calculations are flawed. It's like comparing a horses to cars in the 1300's. In the 1300s they didn't have cars yet so they couldn't really compare them as alternatives to horses.

This is what I was trying to explain, if your going to make the job closer to game LORE duel wield isn't the ligament answer. Making the one handed attacks fit with game lore is the way to go. The alternative must not be like they have enspells setup today with the weak laughable comparison. Such as making (PURELY AN EXAMPLE!!!!!!!) the enspells inflict x times damage and accuracy when only welding one weapon.

You're real goal is to figure what work and improve it enough that you won't be stuck on the notion of only using dual wield. Think outside the box stop using a lazy logic that only one path exist because it's already beneficially accepted.

When you build a new house out in the middle of no where there are no roads, phones or power lines leading to it. You obviously need to create solutions first before complaining about potholes that don't exist yet. Math doesn't always need real numbers either because sometimes you can figure things out without knowing actual information.

Example: "How long is a rope?" Well there isn't enough info without measuring it first but you can still answer the question with something like "It's length is half it's size multiplied by two." This is how you make a working equation without knowing the real numbers.

So next time think outside the box. If something you think up doesn't work right be creative, think creative and use/make new variables that may or may not already exist. It's really simple to understand. You don't have to follow common locked trends. You can always create something better then whats already available if you put your minds to it.