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  1. #31
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    I really hope the "special weaknesses" in Legion are things like the Naraka being made weaker to blunt damage rather than some sort of proc system. Not really a matter of easier or harder, I just like how Legion is a very straightforward combat event where success depends on mechanics universal to the whole of FFXI rather than a mechanic specific to Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Attack/Defense Ratio Adjustments
    This is in regards to the post I made previously about future battle system adjustments.
    We will be making adjustments based on the content described under the "Regarding Defense" header. After the adjustment, in the case that a player's defense is significantly lower compared to a monster’s attack power, the amount of damage received will be higher than what it is currently.

    Example:

    For the below values:
    Monster attack damage value = 100
    Monster attack power = 1000
    Your defense = 250

    The damage received will be as follows:
    Pre-adjustment amount of damage received = 200
    Post-adjustment amount of damage received = 400
    *This is just a simple calculation to make it easy to illustrate the change.

    To go along with the above, the below two adjustments will also be made:

    The maximum value for damage dealt from the attack defense ratio will be adjusted so they are identical for both single-handed weapons and two-handed weapons.
    The defense reduction penalty for "Counterstance" will be reduced.
    I notice that no changes to Monster-Vs-Player level correction are mentioned here. Is something like that incoming and just not announced yet? Have plans changed in regard to it? Is a change to level correction coming later after seeing how things work with the new attack/defense calculations?

    With just the change to attack/defense coming to pass and level correction left as-is, I worry that physical TP moves from high-level high-attack monsters are going to hit like the moon dropping from orbit onto my tenderest of bits.
    (6)

  2. #32
    Player Ziyyigo-Tipyigo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    Ziyyigotipyigo
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    Sylph
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kincard View Post
    Attack/Defense Ratio: "We can't just mindlessly ride berserk every time the timer is up now"- that's the point. There's no strategy involved if what the players are facing is "Our defense is so low berserk has no downsides anyway".
    If there needed to be a down side, there'd still be a down side to Restraint.
    (3)
    Nothing in the above post is intended to disparage Square Enix or FINAL FANTASY XI, or to criticize Square Enix staff; such behavior would be a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. Any such violations of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement should be reported to Square Enix immediately, by using the "Report Post" icon in the bottom-left of forum posts.

    No Moogles were harmed in the making in this post. Stars save the Sibyl!

  3. #33
    Player Detzu's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    13
    Character
    Detzu
    World
    Cerberus
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    DRK Lv 99
    Time to /toss Twilight Scythe, inv +1 and good job Square Enix for making it useless.
    (3)

  4. #34
    Player Kincard's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    Character
    Kincard
    World
    Leviathan
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    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    If there needed to be a down side, there'd still be a down side to Restraint.
    It does have a downside- the movement speed down. I know you're going to argue that the movement speed down doesn't matter in application but the point is that you actually get the debuff and its noticeable enough so that it's less useful in events where you need to move around a lot more (NNI for instance). Berserk was always supposed to have a downside of making you take more damage but the fact is that in application you never actually notice it because players have such low defense as a standard. Making it so that the defense actually matters will make it more than just you going "oh no the number in my equipment window went down".
    (1)

  5. #35
    Player Crimson_Slasher's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    San d'Oria
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    356
    Character
    Grievor
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Count me among the list of people disapointed with the twilight scythe chance, and the embrava and perfect defense reductions. The system as it is now (With certain events offering a tag onto these abilities weakening them) was fine, but now embrava is placed into the category of inability. It took an ability which could be used to great effect, and destroyed any possibility of using it. The pace of fights has shortened a lot, its not something to ignore.

    However no longer can the ability even be used in casual capacity, say an abyssea exp party where someone would want to enjoy themselves or test out its capability. We will adapt to the hurdles presented, but twilight scythe had little to no utility, and embrava was a tool used to fight a random number generator that didnt want players to succeed.

    In short, twilight scythe was a flash in the pan, that has now become a no-longer desired item, and more than before, people will be discarding it unless it recieves some other utility granted to it. However the changes to embrava and perfect defense are excessive, and this is nothing short of an injustice and a mockery to the playerbase in my personal opinion. This is akin to teaching a child to ride a horse, then outlawing the ownership, sale, and purchase of horses.

    If you do want to change the effects, reward those whom put effort into the abilities, make them skill related, or strongly examine, and self-test the events which they are utilized, and see if you developers, under optimal, and more realistic situations, can be completed, even semi-reliably. I strongly urge you to reconsider these changes, or again, simply tag events (similar to Salvage II) with the weaker effect abilities where you do not want them abused.

    As for twilight scythe, it has become a cheap toy, a show piece, and something players will use as a hold over weapon, so as much as i had enjoyed mine, i sadly will be cramming it into the deepest corners of my storage, as the change does not warrant its use any longer.
    (4)

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kincard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    If there needed to be a down side, there'd still be a down side to Restraint.
    It does have a downside- the movement speed down. I know you're going to argue that the movement speed down doesn't matter in application but the point is that you actually get the debuff and its noticeable enough so that it's less useful in events where you need to move around a lot more (NNI for instance). Berserk was always supposed to have a downside of making you take more damage but the fact is that in application you never actually notice it because players have such low defense as a standard. Making it so that the defense actually matters will make it more than just you going "oh no the number in my equipment window went down".
    Restraint, Enhances your weapon skill power with each normal attack you land.

    Retaliation, Allows you to counterattack but reduces movement speed.
    (3)

  7. #37
    Player Kincard's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    Kincard
    World
    Leviathan
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    NIN Lv 99
    Whoops, my bad, that's what happens when you only browse stuff.

    I'm still not seeing the logic of "if this JA has no downside no JAs should have downsides". Berserk was obviously designed with you sacrificing defense for attack in mind, and now that they made it so that it actually matters people are moving to goalpost to "It should not penalize you at all"?

    There are buffs that give increases with no downside (Focus, Dodge, Boost, Divine Seal, Restraint etc) and ones that penalize you in exchange for something (Yonin, Innin, Defender, Last Resort, Counterstance). If you want to argue that Berserk shouldn't actually have a penalty have some sort of reasoning behind it rather than just stating a random JA that happens to not have a downside, because that's not an argument when there's multiple JAs of both sorts.
    (1)

  8. 03-17-2013 01:04 AM

  9. #38
    Player Ziyyigo-Tipyigo's Avatar
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    Windurst
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    Ziyyigotipyigo
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    Sylph
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    The thing is, Restraint originally did have a down side: a critical hit rate reduction. They deliberately removed that penalty, to the point where the ability's name doesn't even make sense any more.

    If "BALANCE!!111!!" were as important to the game as you claim, they'd have at least found a new penalty to restrain Warriors by now.

    And yes, there are /ja's with no down side, but note that none of the ones you listed are for WAR (except Restraint). It's clear that the original design intent for WAR was to play with trade-offs (Berserk, Defender, Aggressor), but that has apparently been abandoned.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo; 03-17-2013 at 01:08 AM.
    Nothing in the above post is intended to disparage Square Enix or FINAL FANTASY XI, or to criticize Square Enix staff; such behavior would be a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. Any such violations of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement should be reported to Square Enix immediately, by using the "Report Post" icon in the bottom-left of forum posts.

    No Moogles were harmed in the making in this post. Stars save the Sibyl!

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDSI View Post
    I am all about making the game more balanced and people experiment with NNI to broaden the job choices for it, but atm i just don't think it will be possible.
    DD+DD+DD+DD+BRD+SCH

    BRD stays at lamp and has to know the timer on their songs, keeping track of when they will go down. The BRD must also have as much +duration gear as possible as well as 5/5 on Troubadour and Nightingale and preferably with the Emp harp as well. BRD uses double marches, if they have an Emp harp they use it for move speed songs on leader floors or spec enemy floors while DDs use Sneak/Invis, it wears when you are hit but till you engage the NM it works to speed you up.

    SCH moves out and cures like in current NNI. Using Regen as it goes down keeping it on DDs, without Embrava you can use Regen V to mimic the effects but you have to keep an eye on it. SCH should also try to keep Adlo and Haste on all DDs if possible to speed up killing, as well as possibly Phalanx since it works so well in combo with PDT especially if your DDs have PDT sets for running, and a Hybrid for DDing. Embrava may not be as powerful in raw DD power as it is now, but you can still use it if you make it to 80 or 100 to zerg the boss down faster and easier.

    To me it does not sound to implausible to do it that way, people just have to be more careful and pay more attention. Mainly with buff timers, the BRD most importantly must make sure they watch their songs duration so they know when Marches will go down and cast them again before they do. The SCH also has to keep an eye on MP since they will be doing more casting than before, and watching timers for their buffs as well, when the BRD buffs at the start of a floor there is a delay where everyone will be together, SCHs need to abuse that delay for their buffs as well. Overall, I think it could be done, but it will take more skill & luck to pull through, I believe floor 80 will easily become the new target for 90% of people doing it, if not everyone who does it legitimately.
    (5)

  11. #40
    Player Kincard's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    Kincard
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    Leviathan
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    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    The thing is, Restraint originally did have a down side: a critical hit rate reduction. They deliberately removed that penalty, to the point where the ability's name doesn't even make sense any more.

    If "BALANCE!!111!!" were as important to the game as you claim, they'd have at least found a new penalty to restrain Warriors by now.

    And yes, there are /ja's with no down side, but note that none of the ones you listed are for WAR (except Restraint). It's clear that the original design intent for WAR was to play with trade-offs (Berserk, Defender, Aggressor), but that has apparently been abandoned.
    Restraint was a pretty poorly designed ability when it was first created. The crit decrease and overall pretty small WSD+ made it so that it was basically never worth using. I guess the idea was to decrease your white damage and increase your WSD for a tradeoff between the two, but of course everyone was obsessed with Ukko's Fury so increasing WSD while lowering crit rate probably hurt it more than it helped. Personally I think it probably would've made more sense to do something like decrease attack speed, greatly increase STP and WSD.

    There are other JAs for WAR with no real downsides (Warcry, Blood Rage). I guess I'm still trying to understand how you're going from "Restraint has no downsides" to "Berserk should have no downsides". Personally I think making the defense down on Berserk an actual consideration (And by extension possibly even giving Defender some use even though it's never had any use, like, ever) will be interesting for more dynamic combat. I dunno.
    (2)
    Last edited by Kincard; 03-17-2013 at 02:51 AM.

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