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  1. #21
    Player Sasaraixx's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    276
    Character
    Sasaraixx
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Thank you for the follow-up Camate. It sounds like things will move in the right direction. Could you pass on to the development team to also keep in mind the enmity spells and abilities possessed by SCH, THF and PLD. I hope the changes will not only fix the current enmity cap problem, but also make those spells and abilities have real usefulness.
    (3)

  2. #22
    Player
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    To put it really simply, we will be making it so that players do not get stuck at the enmity cap in battle anymore (the current situation where the enmity control system is not functioning properly). Apologies if the main basis of our adjustment plan was not clearly spelled out.
    It's nice to hear this spelled out so plainly. Thanks!
    (2)

  3. #23
    Player Yinnyth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    839
    Character
    Yinnyth
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaraixx View Post
    Thank you for the follow-up Camate. It sounds like things will move in the right direction. Could you pass on to the development team to also keep in mind the enmity spells and abilities possessed by SCH, THF and PLD. I hope the changes will not only fix the current enmity cap problem, but also make those spells and abilities have real usefulness.
    (brd merit spells regarding enmity are almost universally considered worthless)
    (0)

  4. #24
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by sweetidealism View Post
    This is an excellent step forward, and I am thoroughly thrilled to hear it.

    Now that tanking will be possible again, are there plans to make tanking desirable again? In many of today's events, it seems like it doesn't matter who the monster attacks (so long as it's not attacking a backline job) because nearly all incoming attacks are area of effects that hit all frontline jobs. As a result, having mitigation for just one person doesn't help much. Personally, I would like to see this changed moving forward.
    Well they are talking about toning down the monsters offensive power via limiting their level based attack bonus. That should take a huge bite out of incoming aoe damage. They also need to look at toning down the aoe status effect blitz that's constantly happening, there eventually comes a point in time when it's just not worth it to fight something slowly with a "tank" and instead just kill it ASAP. Remember the longer something is alive the more time it has to wipe everyone and the high chance of someone making a mistake and wiping the alliance.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  5. #25
    Player Volkai's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    289
    Players who are complaining about SE's hesitation to write about game mechanics formulas would do well to keep in mind there is a significant difference between players figuring out such things and the company officially confirming them. In particular it is a difference in what SE can do to legally defend themselves if another company were to copy their IP in this regard.


    Anyways, it's a pleasure to hear such frank discussion of game mechanics by Matsui, and I look forward to seeing the results of these enmity adjustments.
    (0)
    "Don't take life too seriously, you can't get out of it alive."

    Adoulin is installed but still not lighting up on your title screen? Here's what to do:
    Go to https://secure.square-enix.com/account/app/svc/login?cont=account and log in, then Select Service >>> PlayOnline / FINAL FANTASY XI >>> Add a service account (blue button) >>> input expansion software registration code.

  6. #26
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyln View Post
    Because there are people out there who may not be familiar with the inner workings of the enmity system, and the explanation is for them. You may know it already. Good for you. Doesn't mean other people do.

    Now, if you understand the system as well as you say you do, how about coming up with some real suggestions?

    Ppl been giving suggestions about enmity issue for years, it's just that they won't listen.
    (5)

  7. #27
    Player Bahamut's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    99
    Character
    Craftthree
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 1
    First, I want to thank Akihiko_Matsui for taking the time to respond to this issue in a way that has shown the improvment of communication between the managment and players of final fantasy and to show information that is deep and meaningful to the gameplay of our characters. Also a thanks to Camate for your work in the forums to reach out with information when possible.

    On a quick side note. I had noticed my resting whitemage would get hit after the tanks provoke would wear off, making resting in battles extremly dangerous inside the emmity radius. I have also always noticed since the dunes on my warrior that the damage dealers or casters would take damage if I did not immediatly provoke off of them after the 30 seconds, and how much emmity the self cures of my paladin do at the start of fights can raise that emmity pretty high. This goes into great depth behind these things, so thank you for sharing this.

    I want to start by saying that I feel the reason this situation and post by our producer exists, is because of the addition of Abyssea expansion, the amounts of damage that is being done, and the amount of "emmity capping" going on because of it. I think this post by our producer is also saying that they intend to keep the abyssea level of damage dealing where its currently is at for the future of the game, which is why a revamp would be needed to be done to the current system. I'm glad this is being done because alot of people have worked hard to get where they are at in abyssea and this will alieviate the worries of losing that in the next expansion.

    As far as the emmity situation goes and how to revamp it, I feel that even with the vast in-depth coverage on the system, there is not even enough data for enfeebles, casting, cures, ect. for me to help out in that process. So I will only do the only thing I can do, which is to support your work revamping the system and give you the time you all deserve on this tough major overhall. Telling us this information makes me feel confident that you all are doing what you can to make a better emmity system for all of your players.

    On Another Subject this thread raises:

    There was one part of this post that makes me unsure about the future roles of the Paladin and Ninja jobs and raises more questions then before as far as tanking goes and probably deserves a thred of itself but whatevs, here is the quote from the purpose of emmity.

    •Purpose - The enmity system is not in place to make monster AI more intelligent. It's more of a stronger significance for securing battle strategy elements by giving players a means of controlling the monster's target (to some extent).

    Now the two questions would be, how do you view the future roles of tanking for Paladins and Ninjas as main tank in the game, and/or are we moving to a system where main tanks will play a dimished role of keeping solid emmity during entire fights like we have been seeing more of in the abyssea expansion, with all jobs sharing the tanking role. The second question would be and would also like a response in the future on, after the revamp, would be if the cap is being looked at by managment to also give the Paladin and Ninja tanks a greater emmity then damage dealers once again by any chance?

    Thank you for this post.
    (1)
    Last edited by Bahamut; 02-23-2013 at 04:10 AM.

  8. #28
    Player Nebo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    Thief
    Posts
    475
    Character
    Nebo
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    I want to start by saying that I feel the reason this situation and post by our producer exists, is because of the addition of Abyssea expansion, the amounts of damage that is being done, and the amount of "enmity capping" going on because of it.
    Abyssea is not the reason that the enmity system does not work properly.

    But the enmity calculations themselves, imo, are a secondary concern to the fact that tank jobs bring very little value to a fight. The player defense adjustment nerf (I view this as a nerf to DD's riding berserk etc.) along with the enmity adjustments might address this. Then again they might not.

    The flaws with the enmity system are exacerbated inside of Abyssea because of the power of Atmas. But the enmity system is broken for the entire game, not just Abyssea.

    These issues have also been present since level 75 was the cap. So the level cap increase cannot be solely blamed either.

    However, the fact that they raised the level cap and introduced atmas without first addressing the glaring issues with the enmity system, was a mistake. They should have been able to see this result coming a mile away.

    I am not appreciative of Mr Matsui's post because he knows we already know the things he posted. Yet he is pretending like he doesn't. Also because he used quite a lot of words to say.....not much of anything.

    But for Camate's follow up, thank you. I (and I'm sure everyone else) will be most pleased if they can actually pull off a situation where everyone is not perma stuck at the enmity cap 10 seconds into a battle.

    And because it is not enough. The level of communication on these forums is not enough. For Camate to be able to "pass along" information "when possible" is not enough. Because "when possible" is not nearly often enough.

    The information that they DO decide to share with us is also not nearly enough.There are people literally starving for information about job and content adjustments...it's like talking to a brick wall. I really might as well be typing this in Word and just save it to my desktop.

    Now, most of my posts probably never get in front of a developers eyes, because I'm sure most of them have too much "emotionally charged" tone or disrespect for their liking. But that is sad. Because, in a business such as this, some of the most valuable feedback you will ever receive is from dissatisfied people that actually CARE about your product.

    It's also the reason, as a marketing manager, I would fire the moron that made it so that only active accounts could post here. This purposeful "I'm not listening to feedback I don't want to hear" attitude is really hurting this game.

    Now, you can't always listen to their suggestions. Most people (myself included) are biased when it comes to things that they care about. But you can listen to their frustration and ask yourself "Why does this dissatisfaction exist?"

    You do not have my respect, because you do not now, nor have you ever actively shown interest in answering that question.
    (5)
    Last edited by Nebo; 02-25-2013 at 06:57 PM.

  9. #29
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    The player defense adjustment nerf (I view this as a nerf to DD's riding berserk etc.)
    And you'd be horribly wrong in that view.

    Their doing two things, first being increasing the monsters Ratio cap to 3.0 from 2.0 for a 50% damage increase at most. The second part their doing is removing the monsters Ratio buff from being higher level then you which reduces their damage by significantly more. The exact amount depends on how much defense you had to start with, the less defense the more significant the reduction.

    Assuming your rocking defense exactly equal to the monsters attack and thus can get the monsters Ratio to 1 the change is as follows.

    EM - nothing (New ratio / old ratio)
    VT (5 levels) - 1.0/1.25 = 20% reduction
    IT (8 levels) - 1.0/1.4 = 28.5% reduction
    IT+ (10 levels) - 1.0/1.5 = 33.3% reduction
    ITGOMGWTF (21 levels) - 1.0/2.05 = 51.2% reduction

    Now here is the kicker, neither Berserk nor Last Resort are a big enough change to bring your defense low enough for a 3.0 ratio. With the exception of some stupid high voidwatch (Ig'Alima / Prov Watcher) and Abyssea NMs monsters do not have very high attack. As long as your over 400 or so defense the chances of you even seeing over 2.0 are small so the adjustment to 3.0 cap doesn't effect most players. The only situations it does hurt you are DRK/WAR stacking Berserk / LR and if the monster use's a defense down move. Now a DRK would only need to stack those two abilities on stupidly high level NM's that need 1500~2000 attack to cap ratio on, those very same NM's that you would be getting a reduction on already.

    Ultimately the only situation this could possibly be a "nerf" is if your a DRK/WAR and poping Berserk + LR on a EM monster for absolutely no reason. This is assuming of course that SE follows through with their response to give CS MNK special attention in this matter.
    (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  10. #30
    Player Nebo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Thief
    Posts
    475
    Character
    Nebo
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    And you'd be horribly wrong in that view
    I don't think so.

    But that view is based more on their design philosophy with various system changes to enmity and defense, while balancing an entire new expansion worth of content around those changes.

    What you are talking about is current endgame (in its decline stage, really). I believe , moving forward, that the development team wants it to be more of a risk than it is currently to ride abilities like berserk without fear of consequence.

    I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.
    (1)

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