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Thread: unbalanced?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcon View Post
    BLM can out nuke BLM with ease. Not with a single nuke (unless you use Ebullience, in which case BLM can't even get close), but over time.
    Umm~ BLM can out nuke BLM?

    In either case its time which kills SCH. BLM has no JAs it must rely on for speed or power, SCH needs Alacrity or Ebullience to put it above BLM because BLM has the ability to cap Cast Time Reduction where as SCH can not, in the best possible SCH Fast Cast set you get around 60% now I think, where as BLM has a native 50% and can use gear to easily cap. Once strats run out SCH loses some speed, BLM ends up casting almost twice as fast which puts its DPS a lot higher. This comes back on BLM though when they run out of MP, so without a stable way to keep their MP up they eventually lose out again.

    BLM's real advantage over SCH is sadly AoE spells, kinda like how WHM has their Curaga spells over SCH, but WHM has more than just that going for them while BLM really doesn't.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Arcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon6324236 View Post
    Umm~ BLM can out nuke BLM?
    My bad, was obviously supposed to be "SCH can out nuke BLM".

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon6324236 View Post
    In either case its time which kills SCH.
    Judging by the rest of your post, you mean BLM with this?
    (0)
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  3. #13
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    SCH starts out with the ability to cast faster than BLM, and/or much harder than BLM. As they consume strats they lose that ability, where BLM is still hitting cast time reduction cap, SCH is slower, and only nuking for slightly more. Until the BLM's MP runs out, once the SCH has no strats the BLM pulls far ahead in DPS because they cast casting at nearly twice the speed of the SCH. Thats why I said time kills SCH, because originally, it starts more powerful than BLM, but if you wait 3~7 nukes then the SCH runs out of strats, and after that point is when BLM starts pulling ahead. In a short fight, SCH will not likely run out of strats quickly enough for it to lose to BLM, but in a long fight, if the BLM can keep their MP up then the BLM will end up being the more powerful of the 2 because it is a constant and sustained power rather than 1 which relies on JAs to fuel it.
    (0)

  4. #14
    Player Arcon's Avatar
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    Ah, that's how you meant it. It doesn't really compare, though, because the BLM will always run out of MP before the SCH runs out of Stratagems. And when that happens, the BLM is entirely screwed. "Keeping MP up" is not possible. Nukes cost about 250 MP per cast on BLM (assuming Thunder V at 40% Conserve MP rate), and can be cast with mere seconds in between (on both BLM and SCH). A 1.5k MP pool would be depleted in less than two minutes. And up until that point, the BLM is winning. However, that's when the tides turn, because SCH can get an insane amount of Refresh and 2.5 times as many Stratagems, which they can use to further reduce MP cost.

    I never even considered using Alacrity for casts, because cast time hardly makes a difference in that short of a time span. Unless you're fighting a mob you can actually kill in a few nukes, that wouldn't be a good strategy (or if you're fighting a mob deserving of Tabula Rasa, in which case BLM doesn't even stand a remote chance). And if that's the case, you can use Ebullience to get on par with the BLM for damage over time. On the other hand, if you're in for the long run, Parsimony will be your friend, and a very dear friend at that. Coupled with Sublimation and a respectable idle Refresh set, SCH will get a MP recovery rate unlike any other mage (not counting BRD). 11 MP/tick from Sublimation coupled with 5 MP/tick Auto Refresh means essentially 16MP/tick on your own, on top of Stratagems.

    So once BLM blew their ammunition (MP), SCH will start pulling ahead, unless they knew from the start it was a short battle, in which case the SCH could play differently to still beat the BLM in the same time period.
    (4)
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  5. #15
    Player Merton9999's Avatar
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    Mordru
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    SCH Lv 99
    I would have joined the Cure V train years ago, not expecting the people who developed the bag of lemons that was the 76-99 spells/abilities to pull off anything more creative to bump up light arts tasks. I was wrong though. With Regen V, faster regen casting, LA bonus to regen potency, new gear that boost cure potency and reduces casting time, and overall healing magic changes, I'm perfectly happy with SCH curing now in every event I bring it to.

    Playing both BLM and SCH as well, I agree with Arcon. While my SCH is running out of strats my BLM is running out of MP, which is worse. I wouldn't have said this as much in Abyssea, but outside it matters a lot. I bring BLM when I want procs and AOE nukes.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player Siiri's Avatar
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    I agree its unbalanced. Time to take T5 nukes away from scholar.
    (2)

  7. #17
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Thelaughingman
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    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Merton9999 View Post
    I would have joined the Cure V train years ago, not expecting the people who developed the bag of lemons that was the 76-99 spells/abilities to pull off anything more creative to bump up light arts tasks.
    I remember a few years ago when everyone at the time was begging for Cure V, and the main justification was Cure VI. At the time you'd notice that with every level cap increase and every moment less spend inside Abyssea just how horrible Cure VI was if you spent any amount of time actually playing White Mage (I remember spamming between Cure IV/V being more then adequate to main heal almost anything shortly before the changes with cure recasts being the only constraint that held this back), so it really puzzled me about the justification when it was really obvious that the problem had more to do with the cure formula, and how it desperately needed changes to scale a little better.

    I'd like to take a moment for thanking everyone who supported the changes over giving out Cure V as a change, although I wish SE had either increased the amount Cure V/VI could heal or lowered their MP costs so they'd be more MP efficient then III/IV are when they did the changes. I guess it isn't bad having them as emergency cures, but essentially the spells could cease to exist and it wouldn't affect me in a major way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merton9999 View Post
    With Regen V, faster regen casting, LA bonus to regen potency, new gear that boost cure potency and reduces casting time, and overall healing magic changes, I'm perfectly happy with SCH curing now in every event I bring it to.
    Personally I'm still a little bitter they stopped where they did for Regen. Light Arts Regen buffs don't affect /SCH at all (there is absolutely no reason it shouldn't, it would be at half level strength), Red Mage doesn't have access to higher tiers of Regen (they should have at least III, and probably IV by now), and White Mage Regen merits are even more of a joke then they were before.

    I'd much rather they focused on increasing Red Mage's access to the spell first.

    I suppose if they were to boost Light Arts from /SCH to give out the 12HP/tic and take the most obvious route to buff White Mage Regen merits (scaling the merit effect with spell tier) then there would be a danger that Regen IV by a well geared White Mage could outcure Regen V from a Scholar tic by tic, which isn't the goal of continued adjustments by a longshot... so any buff to White Mage Regen Merits will probably be duration related (considering White Mage doesn't get Composure, or Perpetuance, and how Regen used to be the most MP efficient way to cure, there is a wide amount of room for improvement, and it is the most natural change without upsetting balance).

    One way this could be done would be to add 10 tics, or 30 seconds per merit. Together with Light Arts and gear, this would equate to 83 tics (249 seconds, or 4 minutes, 9 seconds, just short of Scholar's 4 minute 30 second Regen spells with gear and strat). This would get White Mage a spell that has 64HP/MP efficiency (more while Accessioned, but still less effective then Scholar's Regen V), which while an improvement over the 34HP/MP that a Cure IV can pull off, is nowhere near the cure potential of an AoE cure. Overall, I wouldn't expect a single White Mage to merit it, but the merit choice would be significantly less insulting.

    So I would say Regen should be adjusted to be a little more friendly for non-SCH to cast it:
    • Give Red Mage Regen III, Regen IV.
    • Make /SCH Light Arts give out the Regen buffs.
      Essentially, /SCH would give out 12HP/tic and 8 extra tics. This will mostly help Red Mages who are subbing Scholar since White Mages will still find cures more MP efficient in most cases.
    • In addition to the current affect, have White Mage Regen merits increase duration.
      This would be mostly symbolic, since other choices would still be better to merit.

    I'd still be somewhat ify on even considering the last change, since it would be symbolic, pretty unnecessary, and essentially close the possibility of a Composure/Perpetuance lookalike effect for White Mage. However the first two changes are ones I would push for, especially since they're mostly for the benefit of Red Mage.
    (3)

  8. #18
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    White Mages are the top healers for two reasons.

    Emp +2 pants
    Curaga III /IV

    Anyone who says differently isn't being honest. WHM/SCH with those pants can pump out stupidly cheap cures and if it's three or more people needing healed then absolutely nothings beats Curaga III /IV. One Curaga IV is faster and cheaper then three Cure IV / V's and Curaga III is just stupidly efficient for both it's MP cost and casting time.

    About the only times where a SCH can heal anywhere near as good as WHM is when you have a single DD on something and the SCH's only job is to cycle Cure III / IVs with a good Regen effect.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  9. #19
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    RDM Lv 99
    Econ,

    SE's "regen buff" was straight off the RDM forums. During the various debates over how to make RDM a better "support" with Cure IV becoming nearly useless it was brought up to give RDM a super powerful healing over time spell. Something on the order of 40~60HP/tick instead of handing out Cure V. Personally I liked this idea as it allowed a RDM to assist a WHM without over curing. SE's answer was to implement it as a buff to LA, which I could get behind until they made it SCH onry. SE should of made it work from sub but limited to the SCH's level, so +12hp/tick as /SCH.

    But it's SE, they really didn't want to see SCH "fail" and buffed the sh!t out of that job. Then finally gave it a super powered 2hr that we ended up basing entire mega boss strategies on.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  10. #20
    Player Zagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    White Mages are the top healers for two reasons.

    Emp +2 pants
    Curaga III /IV

    Anyone who says differently isn't being honest. WHM/SCH with those pants can pump out stupidly cheap cures and if it's three or more people needing healed then absolutely nothings beats Curaga III /IV. One Curaga IV is faster and cheaper then three Cure IV / V's and Curaga III is just stupidly efficient for both it's MP cost and casting time.

    About the only times where a SCH can heal anywhere near as good as WHM is when you have a single DD on something and the SCH's only job is to cycle Cure III / IVs with a good Regen effect.
    If you would have argued that a WHM can keep from pulling hate due to Cure Vs fixed hate I would have seen the argument. Curaga III/IV being able to cost 0 MP is great but they aren't hate free so unless you plan on tanking you aren't spamming them. Outside of being able to keep from hitting hate cap as fast as SCH (assuming the fight is even long enough for that) or procs I honestly don't see in what situation a WHM > SCH in the current game.
    (1)

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