what i had hoped for VS what we got.

[hideka]

now im no professional artist or anything, but i had drawn this picture of what i prayed geomancer would be like when FF11 Finally released it back when i was still in highschool in 2005. crummy i know, but it gets the point across.



Pretty much a berderss swinging axes and bells and tossing arround moderate damage NON-MP abilities that debuffed the targets or enhanced your allies.


what SE gave us is a want-to-be taoist outfit.... (while the hat and body look cool, the hot pants and sandals combo is fugly on females)

geomancers were supposed to be nature loving people who lived in the wilderness and attuned their bodies with it. basically nature mages. instead of getting something like this, we are getting a watered down blackmage that looks to be pretty darn close to a re-hashing of scholar with presumably zero melee capabilites and limited healing capacity.

now i know im not the only person who has become disappointed with the outcome of this iconic job. it really feels like it was just rushed and poorly developed. seriously, any tardo with a keyboard and general knowledge of FF11 mechanics could design a job if 90% of that job is based out of another existing jobs role AND abilities.... i dont know, was i expecting too much when i hoped for a truly unique job in terms of abilities? there is zero point in rehashing what another job can do by using said jobs pre-existing abilities and spells to do so, and to do it with a lesser effect.

does anyone share my disdain and general irritation about this? i would gladly wait another 6 months for this Expansion if it meant SE would take the time to sit down and restructure this job into a truly unique job (as unique as you can be with only 4 role-types to work within, heals, dps, support, tank)

[SpankWustler]

The only game in which hitting stuff is a strong element of Geomancer is Final Fantasy Tactics. In both III and V, Geomancer has mage-like statistics in spite of not using MP and rings bells from the back-line. The most recent incarnation of Geomancer from Tactics A2 is the closest thing to a mage that the Gria have; this version even uses MP.

That's not to say that Geomancer should or shouldn't hit things in Final Fantasy XI, but just to say that your vision of the job comes from your imagination just as the Development Bros vision comes from their imagination. I'm not sure how either vision is better or worse than the other. Ultimately, the value of Geomancer is going to come from how well it does stuff rather than how much of a mage it is and whether it uses MP or not.

[Koren]

Well, your "vision" of GEO isn't much better.

First you give them a 1 handed weapon, which already puts them at a second tier melee from the general player base perspective right out of the gate.

Second you give them abilities rather than magic leaving you with either timers you cant really reduce or another charge system. And you already said you expected the damage to be moderate, i.e. unimpressive, so you're not pulling GEO to the forefront of anything with Geomancy.

We don't have a way of differentiating between different terrain for the GEO moves and to be honest, even if the game did, you'd be looking at 2 or at most 3 different terrains for any particular fight so at most 3 different moves. That means most likely SE would just assign a few different abilities to each zone. Let's also not forget that GEO had been notoriously random with effects, you know that RNG that players seem to loathe with a passion. I'm sure that players would just love getting 5 consecutive castings of Blaze Spikes or something when they really are trying to get that Inferno class attack off. I'm fairly certain you'd counter with getting a GEO ATK and GEO DEF versions much like SMN's Blood Pacts. This would be likely offset by having various tiers of effects and the one with the highest chance of going off with undoubtedly be weakest/most useless. Were you expecting to get Instantacast Ancient Magic with any type of consistency? Sure they might release gear to increase the chances of getting the strong move, but it would never be very high and the attack power will probably come from some ignored stat, probably Mind or Charisma. Maybe it'll be improved based on the element so the only time Strength would matter is if you get a fire move off.

Since GEO is more or less terrain based you'd still be looking at a fairly small move set that you have no control over available. I'm sure you'd have tons of fun fighting a Puk and only having Windslash and Silence as available offensive moves.

And to be honest, the look of the job is appropriate. GEO has also been translated as Feng Shui Soldier from the Japanese which ties into the directional aspect that was planned for it, but maybe you just like the classic look of a Christmas elf in a parka.

All in all your idea of GEO is just a second-grade melee that would basically run as a petless BST with some uncontrollable elemental Jumps. Yeah, you're on a whole different league than those tardos with a keyboard.

[Trumpy]

No one ever mentions Mog from FF3 US (FF6 JP), which did dances based on areas.

[Merton9999]

I like the sphere concept honestly. And buffing and enfeebling are my favorite roles, so... The BLM aspect of this job seems secondary at best to me, which is fine because it's just something to add to the mix while I'm maintaining spheres and moving around.

Also, I wouldn't have wanted this job the way it was in Tactics, and certainly don't want it to look like it did in FFV. The random selection of effects would have been prohibitively horrible to me, and I don't see terrain based effects working in this game.

Also, your concept keeps sounding like DNC with an axe to me. Sorry but I think the sphere and positional aspects are more original regardless of what we're doing with them.

Oh, and I HATE the bell thing. I hope GEO bells are never visible. It's nostalgic, sure, but something they could have dropped for my taste. I do like the clubs shown in the teasers though.

[hideka]

The only game in which hitting stuff is a strong element of Geomancer is Final Fantasy Tactics. In both III and V, Geomancer has mage-like statistics in spite of not using MP and rings bells from the back-line. The most recent incarnation of Geomancer from Tactics A2 is the closest thing to a mage that the Gria have; this version even uses MP.

That's not to say that Geomancer should or shouldn't hit things in Final Fantasy XI, but just to say that your vision of the job comes from your imagination just as the Development Bros vision comes from their imagination. I'm not sure how either vision is better or worse than the other. Ultimately, the value of Geomancer is going to come from how well it does stuff rather than how much of a mage it is and whether it uses MP or not.

actually in the current Version of FF3, which has more depth than NIN NIN SAG SAG for its party dynamics, Geomancer is the go to Physical DPS class for a Humongous portion of the game, due to the available bells are almost always double the damage or signifigantly higher damage than any other weapons that are available. not to mention they have the lowest weight modifier of any weapon besides daggers, which makes their attack multipliers signifigantly higher at lower Jlevels than other classes.
it only starts falling behind once you get thfs with 90+ damage daggers, Knights with rag/xcala and ninjas with shurikens (or monks/blackbelts level 71+). if geo had some better endgame armor it would be in my party forever... sadly tho, gaia doublet doesn't stand up well compared to crystal armor

Well, your "vision" of GEO isn't much better.

First you give them a 1 handed weapon, which already puts them at a second tier melee from the general player base perspective right out of the gate.

i would counter this with " SE is trying to rebalance 1H and 2H" but im not even going to bother because theyre already going in the wrong direction. raising the base acc does minimal help to the situation of one handed WS's due to the fact that most of us are already at acc cap. not to mention the 5% gaurenteed miss rate on multihit WS's. if they really wanted to rebalance, remove that stupid ACC cap from 1h Multi hit WS's, and increase our TP mods a bit.

Second you give them abilities rather than magic leaving you with either timers you cant really reduce or another charge system. And you already said you expected the damage to be moderate, i.e. unimpressive, so you're not pulling GEO to the forefront of anything with Geomancy.

actually i was thinking of a more unique charge system than what dancer scholar and corsair currently utilize.

We don't have a way of differentiating between different terrain for the GEO moves and to be honest, even if the game did, you'd be looking at 2 or at most 3 different terrains for any particular fight so at most 3 different moves. That means most likely SE would just assign a few different abilities to each zone. Let's also not forget that GEO had been notoriously random with effects, you know that RNG that players seem to loathe with a passion. I'm sure that players would just love getting 5 consecutive castings of Blaze Spikes or something when they really are trying to get that Inferno class attack off. I'm fairly certain you'd counter with getting a GEO ATK and GEO DEF versions much like SMN's Blood Pacts. This would be likely offset by having various tiers of effects and the one with the highest chance of going off with undoubtedly be weakest/most useless. Were you expecting to get Instantacast Ancient Magic with any type of consistency? Sure they might release gear to increase the chances of getting the strong move, but it would never be very high and the attack power will probably come from some ignored stat, probably Mind or Charisma. Maybe it'll be improved based on the element so the only time Strength would matter is if you get a fire move off.

Fair enough, read my next post >_> i hit the character limit.

Since GEO is more or less terrain based you'd still be looking at a fairly small move set that you have no control over available. I'm sure you'd have tons of fun fighting a Puk and only having Windslash and Silence as available offensive moves.

Again Next post!

And to be honest, the look of the job is appropriate. GEO has also been translated as Feng Shui Soldier from the Japanese which ties into the directional aspect that was planned for it, but maybe you just like the classic look of a Christmas elf in a parka.

Well hell, last i checked, people with a mote of intelligence don't call a Chevy astro van a Porsche because they want someone else to think that they're getting a Porsche when it is OBVIOUSLY not a Porsche >_>.

thats essentially SE saying: "Sheet guys i had a brilliant idea, lets just call this job, that's very obviously NOT a geomancer, geomancer. we should do it because people will want to play it more because of the Iconic nomenclature."

all i really did for that picture was

+

+ a little bit of imagination >_>
i personally wouldnt mind having an af like that >_>

All in all your idea of GEO is just a second-grade melee that would basically run as a petless BST with some uncontrollable elemental Jumps. Yeah, you're on a whole different league than those tardos with a keyboard.

all in all all se's idea is a second grade- mage that would basically never get invited > _>
proceed to next post prz >_>

[hideka]

1: Charges do not naturally accumulate over time
2: there would be a charge pool for each element

Method 1 of obtaining charges:
Charges would be granted upon killing a monster. the charges gained would be determined by the element that the felled monster was aligned with.
if the monster Has only one base element, you would gain two charges of that element and one of the opposing element
if the monster has dual elemental properties you would gain one charge for each monster element, and one randomized opposing charge EX: Fire/Wind mob would give 1Fire/ 1Wind charge and one Ice or Water charge
if a monster is slain on a day that is compatable with his current element, you gain a bonus charge to it's primary aligned element
If a monster is slain on a day that is Opposing its primary element, you recieve a bonus charge for its apposing element
if a monster is slain during a weather effect, you will gain a bonus charge for that weather's element
if a monster is slain during double weather, you will gain two bonus charges for that element
if a monster is slain during aligned weather/day you will gain two bonus charges of that element ( EX fire monster on fires day in fires weather, grants 4 fire charges)
if a monster is slain during double aligned weather/day you will gain 3 bonus charges of that element ( EX fire monster on fires day in double fire weather, grants 5 fire charges)
If a monster is slain during an opposing weather element you gain +1 opposing weather charge
If a monster is slain during an opposing double weather element you gain +2 opposing weather charge
if a monster is slain during an opposing double weather on opposing day you gain +3 opposing weather charge

Method 2 of obtaining charges:
Natures Call
Job ability Level 40
Recast 5 minutes
Consumes one prismatic Crystal to grant +3 charges to all elements

Prismatic crystals would be made via Alchemy & synergy. combining one cluster of each element into a "prismatic cluster" standard synthesis yeilds 1-2 clusters, Synergy yields 2-4 clusters. each cluster provides 99 prismatic crystals upon usage.

Method 3 of obtaining Charges:
Mother natures Shield
Job ability
Level 30
Recast 2 minutes
Converts next incoming source of elemental damage into charges proportionate to damage taken.
75% of max hp taken = 4 charges for that element. 50 = 3, 25=2 10~=1

Charge capacity:
1-29 = 1 charge for each element
30-49= 2 chargess for each element
50-69 = 3 charges for each element
70-99 = 4 charges for each element

The geomancy its self would be utilized by consuming one to three charges of an element or multiple elements to produce varying effects
the geomancer would have three distinct primary abilitys
Geomancy I
Geomancy II
Geomancy III
Targeting code list:
P- Party
A-Any
S- Self
ST-Single target
MT- AOE
Geomancy I:
Recast 30 Seconds
Sub-List
Permafrost: (ST)Ice damage- consumes one Ice geomancy charge: Additional effect- Bind
Gust: (ST)Wind damage - Consumes one wind geomancy charge: Additional effect - Blind
Stalactite: (ST)Earth damage - Consumes one Earth Geomancy Charge: Additional effect - Petrifiy
Staticbolt: (ST)Lightning damage- consumes one thunder geomancy charge: Additional effect Stun
Downpour: (ST)Water damage - Consumes one water geomancy charge: Additional effect Drown
Heatwave: (ST)Fire damage - Consumes one fire geomancy charge: additional effect- Plauge
Illumniate: (P-A-ST)Regen- Consumes one light geomancy charge: Regen's target Additional effect: Regen Aura
Darkness: (p-A-ST) Refresh- Consumes one darkness Geomancy charge: Refreshes target: Additional effect Refresh aura

Geomancy II:
Level 30
Recast: 45 secs
Sublist
Earth based:
Magma Field(MT): Earth + Fire damage: Consumes one eath & one fire geomancy charge. Places a Damage over time effect on the ground arround the target. targets that remain within 5 malms of the primary target will take fire damage over time until the effect fades
Sandstorm (S-MT): Earth + Wind Damage: 1 earth 1 wind : deals damage to all targets within rage of the geomancer. inflicts all affected targets with Choke.
Mudslide: (ST): Earth + Water Damage: 1 earth 1 water: deals damage to selected target. additional effect, Gravity
Heaven-sunder: (MT) Earth + Thunder: 1 earth 1 thunder: Deals damage to targets within range of target. additional effect terror
Glacier: (ST) Earth + Ice: 1 earth 1 ice: Deals damage to selected target: Reset's targets TP Pool.
Fissure: (MT) Earth + Earth: 2 earth; deals Heavy earth damage; Provides all targets within range of the affected target "Stone skin" Proportionate to the damage dealt.
Promised Land: (S): Earth + Light: Creates a field on the ground. alll targets that remain inside of the field are granted a unique Protect and shell effect proportionate to the geomancers level.
Abyss: (ST) Earth + dark - 1 earth 1 dark: Deals no damage: Inflicts target with Fear. (Increases susceptablity to enfeebling effects and killer effects)
Wind
Firestorm: (MT) Wind+ Fire: 1 wind 1 fire- Deals damage to all targets in range. grants enfire to all allies in range
Frozen Gale: (S-MT) Wind + Ice: 1 wind 1 ice- deals damage to all targets in range of the geomancer: Additional effect Rooted (targets are bound, however physical damage will not break the bind effect)
HYDROSTORM!: (MT) Wind + Water- deals heavy damage to all targets in range. deals more damage if richter belmont is in the party >_>.... i kid >_>
Sonicblast: (ST) Wind+ Thunder: deals no damage to the target. Knocks target back and inflicts gravity
Wind Slash: (ST) Wind + Wind, 2 wind: Deals Heavy damage- Doubles the effect of DOT abilities on the Target.
Soothing breeze- (P-A-MT) Wind + Light - Heals targets in range of selected target for a small amount
Winds of darkness: (MT) Wind + Darkess : Inflicts all targets in range with Sap (HP/MP/TP DOT, all alliesin range of afflicted target gain HP/MP/TP porportionate to the ammount lost by the target)
Fire:
Geyser: (ST) Fire + water, 1 fire 1 water: Deals damage. target is afflicted with burn
Firebolt: (ST) Fire + Thunder, 1 fire, 1 thunder: Deals fire damage, Stuns all adjacent targets
Frostfire: (S-ST) Fire + ice, 1 fire 1ice: creates a field on the ground. all targets within the field gain Increased Fire and Ice magic attack
Incinerate: (MT) Fire+ Fire , 2 fire: deals heavy damage to all targets in range. deals severe damage to targets with lower HP than the caster.
Shiningflare (ST) Fire + light , 1 fire 1 light- Deals Damage to target. additional effect Flash on all adjacent targets.
Shadowflare (MT) Fire + Darkness, 1 fire 1 dark) Deals Severe MP damage.

the list goes on and on >_>

[Metaking]

well problem with geo is it looks and fills more like an mystic. Wont lie when i think of geo i do think FFt, for FFonline tho geo should need to look like a combo between itself(fft) and elementalist probably would use or convert (into something it could use) elemental crystals seance there suppose to seal the power of the land/ elements. spells would use X number of the item that matches there element x based on tier, would instat cast, but have decent recast. spells be divided into buffs and nukes with its buffs being double edged swords based on the element example ummm thunder buff:thunder brand boost dex and crit dmg lowers vit and def, only exception would be there light buff/cure which will be a generally weak cure but gives a per tic regen like effect based on a % of what it did. There nukes (and probably buffs as well) would use that elements primary as its Dstat and mod excluding dark and light which not sure what you would use....

[Koren]

First, you propose we keep track of 8 separate elemental pools, but okay, lets assume there's something onscreen that will track it for us so we don't go mad.

I can only assume from the pattern you're making that Geomancy 3 combines 3 elements to create an effect so with Geomancy 1 and 2 we get around 300 different combinations. 300 combinations that follow no particular effect pattern past Geomancy 1. And we haven't even touched on the method in which we would be able to use Geomancy.

I would hope you don't expect a 300 ability list to go through and the only realistic way of utilizing this I can come up with would be similar to PUP's maneuvers in which you hit the element JA and then hit a Geomancy activation JA to use it, or possibly hit the Geomancy JA and then hit the Elements you want. Either way it's slow and puts you at the mercy of the dreaded JA delay so now your DPS is shot. You could go through an ability menu like Geo3>Earth>Fire>Wind I guess, but that's not a great deal faster.

But let's step back and suppose there is a method so you could pick the combination you want with only one JA. That should save the job, right? Well, not so much. Using Geomancy to its fullest would require 37 charges every 5 minutes assuming Geo3 is a 1 minute recast which does fall fairly close to the 32 charge maximum with another 24 due to the Prism Crystals so it would seem to work out fine. However, that's only if you've carefully rationed out how you plan to use your charges. Use a 3x Water Geo3 spell and any other utilizing the final Water charge and that's 45 spells you no longer have access to leaving you hoping the mob you're fighting hits you just hard enough to give you enough charges without killing you and then you have to waste precious charges on healing or have your WHM/SCH/etc heal you. Speaking of dying, you'd probably say that death does not make you lose charges, but I'd wager SE would make you zero out. So any spell you use repeatedly would most likely harm you more than help over time unless you find a good set to cycle through and we know the best combos would share the same elements just so players would have to make a choice. Now you might be able to fight some surrounding mobs, if any are available, to recharge, but those tend to be limited in type based on area so the only really reliable method is using Prism Crystals.

So what situations would this GEO be most useful for? Zerging bosses maybe, but an axe wielding GEO is already at a disadvantage vs the 2 handers for damage and the status immunity many NMs have would limit the offensive GEO spells to damage primarily made worse by the fact ability timers are not reduced by haste. Exp type parties are also unlikely since players only fight a few types of enemies at once, GEO would mostly be recharging 2-3 elements. This kind of GEO is best suited for events like Nyzul where they can fight many different types of weaker enemies, but not in a constant stream, or like the Assault Mission Blitzkrieg where AoE moves are most effective.

So I guess I was wrong, it's not like an elemental DRG, it's more like a BLU focused on AoEs. Sure GEO would have more variety, but also a very limited amount of resources coupled with a second tier melee ability. FFXI may not be the fastest game around, but this is designed more for table top games or turn based games where you can consult a chart during play.

The biggest failing is there is literally too much variety and not enough resources to use them with which puts GEO at being good at nothing other than nuking really. The best healing is likely Lightx2 and Lightx3 so the most a GEO can heal is 3 times every 5 minutes unless there are undead nearby to kill which will probably require even more healing. They can't really debuff since the status effects are secondary effects like BLU spells so are not included in immunobreaks for NMs if the NM can be debuffed at all. Can't really tank since your own design is cloth type armor so low defense, unimpressive attack so hate wont be held, unless Geomancy causes hate spikes. The GEO might be able to buff themselves well, but like before, continued use of specific spells will empty the GEO's reserves faster than they are replenished. Furthermore, as the target, a GEO would then be unable to kill nearby mobs to replenish themselves and be dependent on another player to do the killing for them, but then you might as well bring a different job to do the tanking. GEO might be able to do buffing if GEO buffs are able to work in conjunction with current ones, but there is still the issue of timers so Geo 1 would be the primary damage source for Geomancy. Geomancy for nuking would be decent since GEO could mix different elements for different nukes and avoid the limited charge problem and have the freedom to kill things on the side to replenish their stocks.

Can't really heal, can't really debuff, can't really tank, unimpressive as a melee. Ironically this design seems to favor the nuking/support role.

[hideka]

actually those are all valid point, however they can easily be remedied by furthering detail on the geomancy spells, detailing merits, af, relic, and emperyan armor sets, and other job abilities and the function of bells.

i envisioned it as three seperate JA's each with a sub list, similar to how dancer's abilities are kept. so you could utilize any geomancy instantly Via /JA or entering the sub menu for that tier.

actually no i didnt plan on making that insane of a combination list. Geomancy II would have been the largest and most diverse list due to the need to cover that many elements

Geomancy III would have been the fix for alot of your complaints, if it wasnt 3 am by the time i was partway down Geomancy II i would have continued. geomancy 3 abilities contain 3 effects ( one for each charge). all of them carry a minimum of either an aura or a field effect, as well as a Geomancer exclusive Buffing effect.

Gaia Protector: (S-MT)Earth X3: Reduces Damage taken by geomancer, Adds En-stone to all targets in range. Additional Effect: Gaia's Wrath (Aura) (Reflects 50% of damage taken by target back as earth damage, reduced by resistances)

Sol's Rage: Fire X3 (MT) Fire X3: Deals damage to all targets in range. adds Attack bonus to Geomancer. Field effect: Increased double attack rate.

Whirlpool: (ST) Water X3: Chance to Deal Extreme damage to the target, if whirl pool fails (Deals normal damage) A Field effect is deployed which will inflict all targets that enter it with Hydro helix In the ammount of the origonal damage. Reduces elemental damage taken by the geomancer.

Twister: (S-MT)WindX3: Deals damage to all targets near the geomancer. Increases geomancer Evasion rate. Additional effect: Haste aura

Giga Volt: (MT) Thunder X3: Deals damage to all targets in range, increases geomancer Critical hit rate & Damage. Field effect High-voltage ( Chance to stun targets within field every 4 seconds)

Sub-zero: (S-MT)Ice X3: Aura Effect: Increases elemental damage dealt by all targets in range of the geomancer. Geomancer deals increased geomancy damage. Field effect: Paralyze & Bind on all targets who enter the effect radius.

Sanguine SwordMT)Dark X3: Deals Physical damage to all targets in range. Additional Effect: Leeching Aura ( Melee damage absorbs HP, Ranged Damage absorbs TP, Magic damage absorbs MP, proportionality to damage dealt) Geomancer regains one Ice, Earth, Water geomancy charge.

Halo: Light X3 (S-MT): Removes status ailments from targets in range, Field Effect: Flash. Geomancer regains one Fire, Thunder, and Wind geomancy charge

Tetra-FlareST)FireX1, WindX1, Thunder X1: Deals non-elemental damage to target. Field Effect: Amnesia. Geomancer's Physical attacks are converted to non-elemental damage ( Does not apply to WS)

Tetra-aegis: (S-MT)Ice X1, EarthX1, Water X1: +20 to all resistances to all party members within area of effect. Aura effect: Reduced Physical damage taken, Reduced magic damage taken. Geomancer gains Regain effect


Function of Bells:
Bells serve to eliminate the " i cant find this element in this area" issue that Geomancer will undoubtedly come across.
bells would be low- moderate damage weapons that provide the geomancer a Permanent +1 to available specified elemental charges
example:

Earth Bell
Level 45
Damage 20
Delay 200
"Earth Boon"
Damage dealt is earth elemental.

"Boon" causes the aligned element to ALWAYS have one available charge

Volcanic Bell
Level 70
Damage 39
Delay 200
"Earth Boon"
"Fire boon"
+1 to water geomancy accumulation

"Accumulation" Increases any gained water charges by +1


Merit1
Increase geomancy capacity by 1 per merit
Increase Geomancy charges gained by Natures Call by 1 per merit
increase geomancy Aura radius by 10% per merit
Increase Field radius by 10% per merit
Reduce recast of Geomancy. : Geomancy 1: -1 sec, Geomancy 2 - 2 sec, Geomancy 3 -3 secs per merit

Merit2
Mother nature: Use a random geomancy. Low chance to use a "Lost Geomancy" Recast 3 minutes ( lost geomancys are a secret :P) Each merit increases the likely hood of using a higher tier geomancy by 2%

Geo-call: Relocate the nearest Field effect to your position. Recast 1 minute. increases field duration by 10 seconds
per merit

earth's Gift: transfer most recent aura to target party member. Recast 1 minute. Increases aura duration by 10 seconds per merit

Field Walker: Reduces enemy geomancy Field effects on the geomancer by 20% per merit

Nullification: Reudces enemy Aura effects on the geomancer by 20% per merit.