So why do we have the worst Espells?

[Mageoholic]

2/10, bad troll is bad =(

I would say so, and you looked like an absolute moron to boot when it comes to RDM, and the mechanics of the game. (you still think SCH can out Stun RDM?)

[Demon6324236]

(you still think SCH can out Stun RDM?)

SCH actually can stun better than RDM, RDM's best way to stun is via Chainspell, which is limited to 60 seconds of stunning 1 time during an event. SCH however with the correct gear can get Stun down to a small 3~4 second recast during Embrava, which for now means about 4 minutes of very fast stuns with more accuracy than RDM, and another 8 minutes which you can use another 10 very fast stuns, this is thanks to Alacrity, and during Tabula Rasa, Focalization. SCH ends up being better for stuns for this reason, however after the Embrava nerf is done, or any areas in which is has already been implemented, I would say RDM and SCH are about the same, RDM has alot more use than SCH for stun outside of 2hours, but during 2hours SCH will win.

Thats so far as I know at least, if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.

Yes, Enspell II doesn't need fixing, what's the point? As I've stated and proven, they have their niche. Why take away a spell when they could just as easily give us a third tier that does something different? Seriously, guys, think before typing.

Sorry to have been off topic, this is actually on topic though. They can not give us a third tier to a spell which we never got a second tier to. En-IIs are not Enspells to me, show me another tier II spell in the game that removes something from the spell in a way that would make it worse than the tier I in any situation, except by MP cost.

Cures, Curagas, Raises, Holy, Dia, Banish, Diaga, Banishga, Protect, Shell, Slow, Paralyze, Cura, Phalanx, Regen, Protectra, Shellra, Reraise, Fire, Blizzard, Aero, Stone, Thunder, Water, Firaga, Blizzaga, Aeroga, Stonega, Thundaga, Waterga, Flare, Freeze, Tornado, Quake, Burst, Flood, Gravity, Poison, Bio, Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Blind, Warp, and Sleepga.

That is a list of every single spell in the game with at least 2 tiers, that fall into the White or Black magic categories. Not one of those spell types has any downfall or anything lost from the first tier upon upgrading to the second. The one spell type I excluded, is Enspells, and as I stated before, I don't think there is a second tier. Despite what you say, the second tier did lose something, it lost compatibility. With En-Is you can run around with any subjob, any gear, and you will get the full effects from the spells. With En-IIs, if you are dual wielding, or have any double or triple attack, you are not getting extra damage on those other hits. There are more things to it than simply this, but this is a big part, something we lost going from I, to II.

Tell me a spell I forgot, something I missed, where when going from the first tier to the second, we lost something, if you cant, then stop acting like this is ok, realize that the spells should be changed, and fixed. En-IIs should always be more powerful than the originals, that is how a second tier is meant to be, look at the elemental nukes, or the cures, you cant make a Cure I more powerful than a cure II, or a Fire I do more damage than a Fire II, because the II tier is meant to be stronger, and thats how our Enspells should be, our IIs should always be stronger, thats why we learn them at a later level, thats why they cost more MP, thats why they are called II spells.

[Sunrider]

So, arguments for tier 2 are as follows:

Pros

-Superior damage when single-wielding a single hit weapon with a moderate amount of Double Attack

-Allows for application of Enspells in combination with Samba effects

Cons

-Inferior with multi-hit weapons, Dual Wield, larger amounts of multi-hit traits (combinations of Temper, Double/Triple Attack, whether form subjobs or gear)

-Damage formula calculates on strike rather than on cast, demanding perpetual equipment of Enhancing skill (potentially at the cost of Haste or Acc), for maximum potential

-"First hit only" clause reduces potential, should the first hit miss for any reason

-Negligible elemental defense reduction with only a few seconds' duration

... Well, um, at least tier 2s... play well with Sambas? That's something... I guess.

Srsly though, I can respect niche: WAR occupies a niche, BRD occupies a niche, Firaga occupies a niche... but this is just ridiculous. The multi-hit thing, the elemental defense thing, I can just barely forgive those. But there was no call for it to use a damage formula from 2003 that was long since improved; that was a bloody deal-breaker.

Who can really justify a tier 2 spell having even less use and inferior formula to a tier 1?

[Carth]

Also,
Hi Carth havent seen you around the internets for some time, hope all is well!.

That's probably because you don't know my new screenname on Alla. It's HeroMystic.

[Carth]

-So, if you're fighting a target that is, for whatever reason, taking zero damage from your melee swings, but is still taking damage from your Enspell II, it's laughable to remove attack and double attack gear (ergo, not haste gear) and replace it with Enhancing skill? How much damage is attack and double attack adding when you're hitting for zero? Not sure if serious!

How cute. This isn't what you said. You said:

When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage?

Little physical damage is still damage. You are still gaining TP. You can still use Requiescat.

And fun fact, even if the mob was taking 0 damage, you'd still be wrong. Enspell I and /NIN puts out a stronger damage output than the lolceremonialdagger method.

-I never dismissed Requiescat; I simply acknowledge the reality of having 15 points to allocate between 14 different merit WS. You can't seriously expect somebody to 5/5 Requiescat for these, as you yourself put it, "highly situational -PDT mobs" when they might have MNK, THF, DNC, DRK, BST, DRG, SAM and/or COR leveled. As for nuking in those situations, that is also, as they say, situational; your MP may be better spent elsewhere, or casting may be less than feasible due to the longer casting time.

Translation: My argument is failing, and therefore I must place arbitrary constraints to my point in order to make myself look smart.

Complaining that you have a bunch of jobs doesn't mean anything. Merits points are easy to get in this game. Even 1 merit on Requiescat is a large gain to speed up that kill. If you choose to ignore it, that's your choice, but it doesn't change the fact that Requiescat is a powerful boon on a mob like that and you'd be an idiot to ignore that.

-My terrible argument is ripped from 2005? Last time I checked, RDM got booted from any and all parties in 2005 if they drew their sword past level 20. My argument is encouraging meleeing. Again, not sure if serious?

It must be nice using that imagination of yours considering I was a melee RDM in 2005.

This was also the correct way to Ceremonial Dagger things to death before the level cap increase kinda killed that strategy.

If Killing Ifrit wasn't pruned, I'd tell you to go there and do a search on Ceremonial Dagger and get all the posts on how RDM should use Ceremonial Dagger on things so they wouldn't TP feed on mobs they did shit damage on. Same thesis, different situation.

But I'm sure you're gonna put an arbitrary rule to make your argument look better such as "you're gonna need all your MP to survive" or "You should be /WHM".

[Vicious]

-I never said you shouldn't be using Requiescat if you have it; all I've said and continue to say is that in situations where physical damage stats aren't doing anything for you, there's no reason to not swap to Enhancing skill gear that will increase your damage. These situations are not mutually exclusive.

-If you're CDaggering something to death, you are wearing a Genbu's Shield regardless of /NIN, not dual-wielding.

-You're complaining that I'm adding all these caveats to my argument when they were already there from the very beginning. Besides, you make it sound like I'm just inventing this shit... and I assure you, it's all from experience, not thought-experiments.

-...ok, again, you were a melee RDM in 2005, cool. Not sure what that has to do with anything; I'm sure you got plenty of shit for it, whether justified or not. That does not change the fact that RDM melee is generally more acceptable today than it was before, mostly because it's in a much better place now than it was, and the metagame pretty much demands it.

-You profess to be a career RDM, yet have never heard of any solos that would require /WHM? I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this kind of ignorance makes it pretty hard.

[Vicious]

Srsly though, I can respect niche: WAR occupies a niche, BRD occupies a niche, Firaga occupies a niche... but this is just ridiculous. The multi-hit thing, the elemental defense thing, I can just barely forgive those. But there was no call for it to use a damage formula from 2003 that was long since improved; that was a bloody deal-breaker.

Who can really justify a tier 2 spell having even less use and inferior formula to a tier 1?

As I quite clearly showed in an earlier post, you need 1.73 attacks per round for Enspell I damage to match Enspell II damage when single-wielding. The only way this is possible is to use an OA2~4 weapon in Abyssea with the proper atmas; regardless of why one would be meleeing on RDM in Abyssea in the first place, you would be sacrificing much more physical damage by using such a terrible weapon for the sake of your argument, and would do much less damage overall.

Ergo, Enspell II is always superior when single-wielding in any remotely realistic, intelligent scenario. When they give Dual-Wield to RDM natively, you can start bitching how terrible they are; until then, math insists that you just stop.

And for all the complaints about the damage formula... you guys do realize that it's the difference between 26(52) and 30 damage with capped/merited skill, right? I mean, I don't disagree that the whole thing is silly, but it's not like it's 15 or 20 damage per swing.

This whole thing just boils down to a bunch of RDM/NINs who think the answer to all of RDM's woes is to increase their damage potential with a very particular subjob and hope that SE forgets about all the powerful magic they can cast on a moment's notice. You are never going to get what you want, because it would horribly unbalanced, you don't have to be Tanaka to see that; but you do have to be delusional to ignore it.

[tyrantsyn]

/whm for solo?, Enspell 2's are fine as they are? Sch a better stunner?
I see some one has finally found the RDM only confused spell.

[Demon6324236]

Sch a better stunner?

As I said at the top of the page, this one is legitimately correct, if you want proof, ask any successful legion group which they take for stuns, a RDM, or a SCH.

[Mageoholic]

-You profess to be a career RDM, yet have never heard of any solos that would require /WHM? I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this kind of ignorance makes it pretty hard.

Name one solo where /WHM trumps /SCH. Just one.

On topic however.

SE should remove the MEVA boost and change it to an Elemental Debuff (Frost Drown Rasp Choke Burn Shock.) Damage doesn't matter, RDM is not asked to come for damage (its not asked for at all but w/e) it is asked to provide utility. Being able to reduce mobs stats directly is a large buff to all the jobs targeting the mob. Instead of providing a silly -10 to MEVA it should be offering a -25 To Stats.

How did I get at the awesome magic 25 number. It takes that many hits to cap your Damage with EN2's so for each consecutive hit you reduce mob stat by 1, until cap where it remains until the ability is recast.

This provides the following.
-STR = A reduction in damage through the mobs fSTR calculation.
-VIT = An increase in damage taken based on players fSTR calculation.
-INT = An increase in Elemental Damage and Black Magic MACC based on DMG and MACC calculations
-MND = An increase to Divine Damage and White Magic MACC based on DMG and MACC calculations
- AGI = An reduction in Evasion, and an increase to Critical hit rate.
- DEX = A reduction in Accuracy and Critical hit rate

Depending on the enspell selected Players will notice more damage/macc and a slew of other side net benefits from reduction to Stats. Making RDM have a buff via debuffing.

All told these would act like the following.

BOOST spells, Attack +, ACC+, MACC+, EVA+, CRIT RATE+, MOB Crit rate -, Defense+.

While they can not all be on at the same time multiple RDM's could provide 1 or more of these buffs. But they also jive nicely with our current line of specific skill debuffs, DIA(ATK+), BIO(DEF+), Gravity(ACC+), Blind(EVA+),

and it supports RDM melee, as enspells need to be poked into mobs.

Utility > Damage for RDM returning to group play.