Weaponskills That Need Most Refinement

[Caketime]

I've always wondered what the point of Cloudsplitter was. I imagine that when it was first being tested the damage was considered too high so they nerfed it to the ground pre-release and slapped it on the Farsha as a last minute troll move. "They'll spend weeks building this Axe only to find out the WS sucks! Mwahahaha!". Ruinator is the boss.

[Damane]

Everyone will list their favorite job's WS here for "broken". There are many but I'd prefer to keep it down to specific Job's needing better choices. Entropy sucks but DRK can use a Rag and Resolution so it should be lower on the priority list. In that same vein Rudra's Storm sucks but THF has access to MS, though dancer is screwed. I would like to see RS be allowed to crit, or DNC put on Mandau to compensate for it. Also Exten should be modified to allow fTP to carry across all hits.

Cloudsplitter sucks but BST has access to the BST 1H WS in the game. Ruinator is four (five as DW) hit attack that can copy fTP for a total of 6.0 fTP before DA/TA procs. It's also 100% STR WSC and carries a ~35% attack bonus. So even if they do buff CS it won't hold a candle to Ruin's damage output.

All considered, DNC, PUP, NIN are the jobs without really nice WS options. For weapons most of the relic WS's suck but the recent merit ones mostly make up for that.

this doesnt make sense, you are excluding in that way some relic/mythic/empy that need an overhaul. What you gonna tell a DRK that made a relic or empy scythe? (not that the relic scythe is bad its awesome) go do a Ragnarok? Same goes with Armageddon vs death penalt. Sucks for your lvl 99 mythic to get outdamaged by a lvl 85 empy! The WSs need balance in between. Thats all people are asking.

IMHO WSs that need an overhaul:

in the relic department:
- Final Heaven (Spharai): lack of damage compared to Shijin Spiral/Victory Smite
- Knights of Rounds (Excalibur): lack of damage compared to Chant de Cygne, tough Excalibur itself has alot of potential in their add effect proc
- Scourge (Ragnarok): lack of damage compared to Resolution/Torcleaver
- Onslaught (Guttler): lack of damage compared to Ruinator
- Metatron Torment (Bravura): lack of damage compared to Ukyo's Fury
- Geirskogul (Gugnir): lack of damage compared to Stardiver/Drakes bane
- Blade: Megsu (Kikoku): lack of damage compared to Blade: Hi
- Tachi: Kaiten (Amano): lack of damage compared to Tachi: Shoha/Tachi: Fudo
- Namas Arrow (Yoichi): lack of damage OR (not both) lack of low enmity generation

not listed because usefull and good:
- Catastroph (Apocalypse): This WS is decent and heals the user
- Coronach (Annihilator): This WS deals almost no enmity which makes it so fantastiq in a lot of Fights
- Mercy Stroke (Mandau): good WS


Mythic WSs (Those WSs should get a normal adjustment, they have +30% dmg on mythic weapons, but that doesnt cut it):
- Kings Justice (WAR): lack of dmg, this WS is WAY behind
- Ascetics Fury (MNK): lack of dmg and way to inconsistence
- Mandalic Stab (THF): lack of dmg
- Atonement (PLD): lack of dmg (750 dmg really lol) + every mob by now is immune to it or resists it to hell
- Insurgency (DRK): lack of dmg
- Drakesbane (DRG): lack of dmg compared to stardiver, the -attack penalty kills it
- Laeden Salute (COR): lack of dmg compared to wildfire, high resist rate due to monters/NMs usually resisting dark based elemental magic.
- Pyrrhic Kleos (DNC): its okeish but behind, better modifiers would fix it easy.

not listed because good:
- STringing pummel (PUP)

not listed because no experience:
- The rest

[Spiritreaver]

You make a solid post like the following

WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.

Then you throw out a post like this right after...

Everyone will list their favorite job's WS here for "broken". There are many but I'd prefer to keep it down to specific Job's needing better choices. Entropy sucks but DRK can use a Rag and Resolution so it should be lower on the priority list. In that same vein Rudra's Storm sucks but THF has access to MS, though dancer is screwed. I would like to see RS be allowed to crit, or DNC put on Mandau to compensate for it. Also Exten should be modified to allow fTP to carry across all hits.

Cloudsplitter sucks but BST has access to the BST 1H WS in the game. Ruinator is four (five as DW) hit attack that can copy fTP for a total of 6.0 fTP before DA/TA procs. It's also 100% STR WSC and carries a ~35% attack bonus. So even if they do buff CS it won't hold a candle to Ruin's damage output.

All considered, DNC, PUP, NIN are the jobs without really nice WS options. For weapons most of the relic WS's suck but the recent merit ones mostly make up for that.

And i mostly mean the last line that i bolded. I'll give you the bit about DNC, but you really need to rethink PUP and NIN.

For NIN at endgame lvl, either Hi or Shun is the way to go. Properly geared either is a hell of a WS. AGI(Hi) and DEX(Shun) gear is readily available to NIN, so i'm really not seeing where the lack of a strong WS for NIN is coming from.

And i left PUP for last as i almost killed myself laughing, making my coffee go down the wrong way. Love or hate PUP as a job, whatever, i'm years past giving a damn over how non-PUP view the job; but you do know that PUP has access to Victory Smite AND Stringing Pummel right? I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind calling either of those WSs anything other than awesome.

[Caketime]

Maybe he dislikes the PUP hat so much that VS and Pummel don't count. I'd find that odd though, PUP gets the coolest hat.

[Kincard]

Actually, I'm sure Exenterator regularly outdoes Blade: Hi and Blade: Shun (I've never parsed my Exents VS His but I doubt it's much worse even if it doesn't match up). Blade: Hi's strength is greatly exaggerated by the playerbase thanks to its inflated damage inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea Ninja's Weapon Skills are still very, very weak compared to pretty much every other job. I say this despite having a nearly perfect Hi set (Just missing Khepri Jacket), my Blade: His still arn't anything mind blowing outside Abyssea.

Blade: Shun is one of the most lackluster of the merit weapon skills. I'm pretty sure only Apex Arrow is worse.

At least DNCs have a halfway decent Mythic WS to go with their halfway decent Mythic, right? Hurray for 600M on a slight upgrade.

[Spiritreaver]

Actually, I'm sure Exenterator regularly outdoes Blade: Hi and Blade: Shun (I've never parsed my Exents VS His but I doubt it's much worse even if it doesn't match up). Blade: Hi's strength is greatly exaggerated by the playerbase thanks to its inflated damage inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea Ninja's Weapon Skills are still very, very weak compared to pretty much every other job. I say this despite having a nearly perfect Hi set (Just missing Khepri Jacket), my Blade: His still arn't anything mind blowing outside Abyssea.

Blade: Shun is one of the most lackluster of the merit weapon skills. I'm pretty sure only Apex Arrow is worse.

At least DNCs have a halfway decent Mythic WS to go with their halfway decent Mythic, right? Hurray for 600M on a slight upgrade.

What is 'lackluster' outside of Abyssea on a one-hander job? A definite range if you please. I don't have Hi, but i DO have Shun and with ~ +80 DEX, ele gorget and ele belt in my Shun WS set, my WSs are between 1500 and 2k outside-2.5k to 3k plus inside. Its not better than what i can do with Jishnu's or Victory Smite, but i wouldn't call it crap either.

[Kincard]

Last time I did Qilin I believe I averaged something like ~1200 for Blade: His. Granted, hard to get into position for Innin when the thing keeps spinning around. It's not terrible or anything, it's just not "good".

Can't say as much for Shun since I almost never use it. Generally I have no real reason to I'm sure you can imagine, heh. I end up around the same as my Hi's though, it's just that I don't get the aftermath so I don't fire it off other than to show off.

I was actually speaking more in general since I average way, way higher than that using Upheaval on my mediocre WAR, and my THF's Exenterator regularly gets pretty close even though my gear for that job isn't stellar, either. (Exenterator also doesn't have the flaw of randomly giving derp damage because of a missed first hit) If I use Rudra's Storm on my SA or TAs that definately blows Hi away since those do 2000-3000+ pretty consistently.

Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi might both be far stronger than what NIN had beforehand, but it still doesn't come close to the WSs many other jobs have, even amongst 1Hers. Victory Smite, CDC, and Mercy Stroke are all better.

They both suffer from the same problem- they use a mod that don't also increase damage "naturally". Ex: DEX on CDC will increase the crit rate, STR on Ukko's will increase with the fSTR and attack etc. AGI doesn't provide any good melee stats (lolsubtleblow) and the DEX mod would be nice if Shun was a crit WS, lol.

[Spiritreaver]

As is habit for me, breaking your post up and replying to each bit. Just helps me focus my replies.

1)Last time I did Qilin I believe I averaged something like ~1200 for Blade: His. Granted, hard to get into position for Innin when the thing keeps spinning around. It's not terrible or anything, it's just not "good".

2)Can't say as much for Shun since I almost never use it. Generally I have no real reason to I'm sure you can imagine, heh. I end up around the same as my Hi's though, it's just that I don't get the aftermath so I don't fire it off other than to show off.

3)I was actually speaking more in general since I average way, way higher than that using Upheaval on my mediocre WAR, and my THF's Exenterator regularly gets pretty close even though my gear for that job isn't stellar, either. (Exenterator also doesn't have the flaw of randomly giving derp damage because of a missed first hit) If I use Rudra's Storm on my SA or TAs that definately blows Hi away since those do 2000-3000+ pretty consistently.

Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi might both be far stronger than what NIN had beforehand, but it still doesn't come close to the WSs many other jobs have, even amongst 1Hers. Victory Smite, CDC, and Mercy Stroke are all better.

4)They both suffer from the same problem- they use a mod that don't also increase damage "naturally". Ex: DEX on CDC will increase the crit rate, STR on Ukko's will increase with the fSTR and attack etc. AGI doesn't provide any good melee stats (lolsubtleblow) and the DEX mod would be nice if Shun was a crit WS, lol.

@1- Personally i'd not use Qilin as any kind of a measuring stick, but that's just me. If you must use a VW mob, i'd go Pil or one of the Kali looking undead SAM mob.

@2- Do you have Shun 5/5? Along with specs for it(katana merits, 12/12 DEX, elemental gorger/belt, etc.)? Makes a huge difference.

@3- Fair comparisons, but you must keep perspective. The weapons you use with Upheaval and Ext. have much higher base dmg than a Katana(not going into how SA works, you are intelligent). So of course, dmg from them is going to be in a whole other league. I mean its a WS from a D50-ish weapon VS a WS from a D130-ish weapon, huge jump.

@4- Very true, while the stat mods aren't STR which would be awesome, SE gave us the ability to max out the contribution these stats up to 100%(85%) in the WS as well as giving ludicrous amounts of gear with that stat in abundance.

Now while it would be kinda cool if Shun or any of the merit WSs could crit, i'm actually happy they don't. Sure they don't spike as high as a crit hit WS can(especially in Abyssea), but they are very consistent. And they are consistent everywhere.

[Pebe]

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[Jaall]

I have to say out of all the WS's available, Geirskogul has to be one of the worst ws's. I'm drg main and just got Gungnir but I have no problem with geirskogul being bad as I can just use stardiver and drakes, BUT... If any ws was to be rethought and changed it should be that. Reasons being that it is AGI 60% mod, yet never seen any use for AGI on DRG post 2006. Secondly, it misses all the time! Even with the acc+ on the weapon itself, and a lot of other acc+ gear, it misses more than most other ws's and is part of a relic which I just think is a little bit off. Thirdly the overall damage is very weak even against EP and DC mobs in comparison to even wheeling thrust etc. And lastly, although not directly related, the aftermath is terrible. The last point has been mentioned a lot and has been needed to be fixed for a while and is all over the DRG forum so not gonna go into that in any more detail.

I know this sounds as if I'm moaning about it but I'm not too fussed, as when I've done my trials to upgrade I'm happy to never use it again (Stardiver and drakes are just a million times nicer and probably always will be, and I made the relic for the weapon itself, not the ws!). But I think, like most relic ws's which I do agree all need to be "updated", they should be a lot stronger considering the effort needed to obtain them. DRG's ws should be top priority in that respect though as from what I can see it's very far behind.