Walk of Echoes Weapon Adjustments

[Spiritreaver]

Honestly, as good as the best Empyrean WSs are even those pretty much all just break even with their Merit counterparts. The ONLY exception to this is Chant du Cygne, which consistently outdoes Requiescat but the latter will still have uses in special situations regardless.

The second place would be the following:
Shijin very slightly beats Smite.
Hi is equal to slightly better than Shun, but honestly both weapon skills need a boost.
Fudo is better than Shoha only if you are ratio capped.

Every single other one is either worse (lolCloudsplitter) or serve different purposes (Ex. Last Stand VS Wildfire, Rudra's VS Exenterator, etc).

I assume your biggest concern in this case would be how it would affect the balance of Relics VS Empyreans. Of the ones I listed above where the WSs are in close direct competition for the same function (H2H, Katana, GKT), Spharai outdoes Verethragna by a slight bit (Though it's more flexible defensively and it doesn't rely on AM) and both Katana WSs need a boost anyway.

There are other strong ones like Ukonvasara but unless they go really overboard Upheaval and Resolution will still destroy Ukko's Fury when you have Mighty Strikes up.

I think the bottom line is that out of all these, pretty much the only big unbalanced change is that Masamune would get an even bigger lead over Amano if you boosted all the Empyrean WSs.

Agree with some of what you said, just wanted to add:

* Unless you are gearing horribly for it, Victory Smite should be slightly AHEAD of Shijin Spiral. And that's on PUP. On MNK with higher base skill and Impetus, VS is firmly the better WS.

* You flat forgot Jishnu's Radiance(most ppl seem to want to ignore it too, so its not just you). Whether you have WoE or full Empy, that WS completely outclasses its merit counterpart.


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As to the sentiment that overall, WoE weapons need 'something' to make people want to build them, i have a neat idea i have been thinking about a while.

How about giving WoE weapons a hidden effect where they enhance the set bonus on Empy +2 sets once the Empy WS is unlocked?

Nothing crazy, but say boost the activation to 12% if a WoE weapon lvl 85+ is equipped along with at least two pieces of a +2 Empy gear. Then one % for ever piece thereafter. So a player in full Empy +2 could have their set bonus proc a maximum of 15% of the time as long as WoE weapon lvl 85+ is equipped?

Now this hidden effect wouldn't just boost the set bonus procs willy nilly or anything like that. The set bonus would still have to have its pre-reqs met. IE: say PUP or DRG would still have to have a pet present, a DRK would still get an atk boost based on their current HP, a DNC would still have to have a Samba up, etc.

So not a huge boost, but something neat imo, that would give WoE weapons some sort of draw.

[SNK]

Please dump the ex on coins and thank you very much!!!!!!

94 Coins of Ruin.
86 Coins of Advancement.
64 Coin of Decay.
55 Coin of Birth.
1 Coin of Glory.

Yeah this needs to happen now. I wanted to finish the sword for awhile but yeah Glory Coins just don't happen often enough for me.

[Pebe]

I just dropped about 150 coins I thought I would never use....

HKBGGGFKRNDLSKDGJMVLDBNKVCFAHSDGVBRKDBN!!!!

[SNK]

I just dropped about 150 coins I thought I would never use....

HKBGGGFKRNDLSKDGJMVLDBNKVCFAHSDGVBRKDBN!!!!

Yeah I almost did the same, Glad I decided to be a packrat. lol

[Kincard]

* You flat forgot Jishnu's Radiance(most ppl seem to want to ignore it too, so its not just you). Whether you have WoE or full Empy, that WS completely outclasses its merit counterpart.

I mostly ignored bow for a two reasons.

1. People don't really use bows that much outside of proccing anymore
2. If you are using Yoichinoyumi it is likely because you want the enmity properties of Namas Arrow so Apex Arrow VS Jishnu's wouldn't really apply in relic VS empyrean

Bows in generally probably need some readjusting, really.

[Calintzpso]

I mostly ignored bow for a two reasons.

1. People don't really use bows that much outside of proccing anymore
2. If you are using Yoichinoyumi it is likely because you want the enmity properties of Namas Arrow so Apex Arrow VS Jishnu's wouldn't really apply in relic VS empyrean

Bows in generally probably need some readjusting, really.

I like my Gandiva. Being a suicidal Ranger is the only kind of fun I still enjoy

@spiritreaver

Situational. Apex ignores Defense, Jishnu's Crits like a mofo. If you were to compare them, WoE vs Merit, based on your target's Stats... You'd want Apex for decent steady damage which is easier to cap on most targets. Jishnu on a targets with lower evasion(agi) and/or defense. However this is all based around how you make your sets and targets, and if in Abby, well...Abby just breaks near everything, Jishnu all the way then.

However, I have yet to come across a mob in this game that had significant defense to consider apex. I don't mean pdt- mobs, I mean in general there just isn't a mob at endgame that exists to my knowledge to make me main this after starting aftermath. WS looks dam cool tho on my Elvaan...

If you bring sidewinder back in with a good set, it can out perform apex almost 90%+ of the time. Just *shutter* dam SW acc, shocked I haven't taken out our LS whm taru's eye with a rogue shot.

[Spiritreaver]

I mostly ignored bow for a two reasons.

1. People don't really use bows that much outside of proccing anymore
2. If you are using Yoichinoyumi it is likely because you want the enmity properties of Namas Arrow so Apex Arrow VS Jishnu's wouldn't really apply in relic VS empyrean

3)Bows in generally probably need some readjusting, really.

@1- Was just saying 'cause you kinda made a sweeping statement there. CdC is not the only Empy WS that performs better than its merit analog. Bear with me niggling at your statement, i admit i'm biased as i have Jishnu's and have had Apex @5/5 and tested them for myself; Jishnu's(for me i must stress) performed better every time.

@2- I didn't bring Relic Bow into my post because its off topic. Don't see the relevance here.

@3- I do agree with this. To be specific i think that readjustment should be in the ammo acquisition department across the board(Bow, Gun, and Crossbow).

I like my Gandiva. Being a suicidal Ranger is the only kind of fun I still enjoy

@spiritreaver

Situational. Apex ignores Defense, Jishnu's Crits like a mofo. If you were to compare them, WoE vs Merit, based on your target's Stats... You'd want Apex for decent steady damage which is easier to cap on most targets. Jishnu on a targets with lower evasion(agi) and/or defense. However this is all based around how you make your sets and targets, and if in Abby, well...Abby just breaks near everything, Jishnu all the way then.

However, I have yet to come across a mob in this game that had significant defense to consider apex. I don't mean pdt- mobs, I mean in general there just isn't a mob at endgame that exists to my knowledge to make me main this after starting aftermath. WS looks dam cool tho on my Elvaan...

If you bring sidewinder back in with a good set, it can out perform apex almost 90%+ of the time. Just *shutter* dam SW acc, shocked I haven't taken out our LS whm taru's eye with a rogue shot.

I can agree with your sentiments to a point.

I haven't used Apex on anything or been in a situation for me where its special properties outweighed the use of Jishnu's. And in terms of consistency, Jishnu's has been rock solid for me. After i blew all those merits to test, i promptly took Apex back to 0/5 and haven't really looked back.

Others may find Apex better for them, no question in my mind there. And i am in no way saying it sucks, it is a solid WS imo, but i am sticking to Jishnu's. If i was on RNG more, i might have been inclined to keep it, but alas i'm usually on DRK, MNK, BLU or NIN.

[Kincard]

I didn't bring Relic Bow into my post because its off topic. Don't see the relevance here.

I was making the suggestion that they make WoE weapons more attractive for players to pursue by making the Empyrean WSs stronger. The biggest concern with doing something like that would be how it would affect the balance between relics and empyreans. In the case of Yoichi VS Gandiva, Yoichi is used for the enmity properties and Gandiva is just when you want to totally lose it with the damage.

I'm not sure how the OAT Bow using Apex would compare to a WoE Bow, but it's plausible the OAT would win through WS frequency despite Apex being weaker than Jishnu's.

[Eri]

Agree with some of what you said, just wanted to add:

* Unless you are gearing horribly for it, Victory Smite should be slightly AHEAD of Shijin Spiral. And that's on PUP. On MNK with higher base skill and Impetus, VS is firmly the better WS.

* You flat forgot Jishnu's Radiance(most ppl seem to want to ignore it too, so its not just you). Whether you have WoE or full Empy, that WS completely outclasses its merit counterpart.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the sentiment that overall, WoE weapons need 'something' to make people want to build them, i have a neat idea i have been thinking about a while.

How about giving WoE weapons a hidden effect where they enhance the set bonus on Empy +2 sets once the Empy WS is unlocked?

Nothing crazy, but say boost the activation to 12% if a WoE weapon lvl 85+ is equipped along with at least two pieces of a +2 Empy gear. Then one % for ever piece thereafter. So a player in full Empy +2 could have their set bonus proc a maximum of 15% of the time as long as WoE weapon lvl 85+ is equipped?

Now this hidden effect wouldn't just boost the set bonus procs willy nilly or anything like that. The set bonus would still have to have its pre-reqs met. IE: say PUP or DRG would still have to have a pet present, a DRK would still get an atk boost based on their current HP, a DNC would still have to have a Samba up, etc.

So not a huge boost, but something neat imo, that would give WoE weapons some sort of draw.

As it stands to less ppl do WoE.

Being me.... playing mostly Japanese Times~
I have a Lv 99 Weapon. So i can't agree with to hard to get.
However i would have to agree with Empy Lv90 being a significantly faster thing to finish.

I think the only thing that would revive WoE from being as....
(> Less crowded? (Empty) As it is in other Timezones.)

...would be to add some sort of 'Defensive Aftermath' in a follow up Trail.
(Be it ~10% Damage Taken)

Something that would distinguish Emp and Woe Weapons.
Despite being a weaker Damage Version.

As for Set Bonus i find that its not a good Idea to Force ppl into Wearing Empy + 2 Gear all the Time.

[Afania]

Even with this adjustment to WoE weapons, a great chunk of them are not useful because of the merit weapon skills. A STR weapon typically costs 4-5M in geodes, an OAT weapons typically costs something like 3M in mirrors/riftsand, and a WoE weapon costs 20M in die/residue to upgrade to 99.

The WoE weapons should not be adjusted in comparison to empyreans, but rather in comparison to STR and OAT weapons. The STR and OAT weapons are outdoing the WoE weapons because most (all?) of the merit WSs now outclass the Empyrean ones. Some solutions to this can be:

1. Improve Empyrean WS
2. Add the base stat increase to WoE weapons
3. Add a weakened aftermath effect to WoE weapons
4. Add stats onto the WoE weapon, such as DA on the axe or TA on the dagger, that sort of thing.

The WoE weapons are never going to be made if something cheaper and more easily obtained is going to outclass them.

The WoE weapons not worth getting generally means their empy not worth getting too. But for the jobs that really need empy WS, but don't want to invest time in getting a lv 90 empy, making 99 WoE weapon easier to get isn't a bad option.

You also didn't consider the fact that not everyone have all merit WS for all their jobs, but getting empy WS can get the job done when you just want to play the job for fun etc.

For example, if I want to lv MNK and NIN and play it in none serious content, but don't have merit WS, and don't want to farm an empy for it, WoE weapon with empy WS is next best option.