On Red Mage melee...

[Duelle]

It was a given that I would post on this, so let's get it done with.

The general state of our class' melee has been questionable for a very long time. We're usually stuck with healing and casting refresh/haste because our other faculties never really provided much of a benefit in parties.

Abyssea gave us atma and gear with a lot of support to our elemental spells (+Magic Attack Bonus and +Magic Accuracy on both gear and atma). The problem is that as a result, our martial side was almost completly neglected in the process (barring a couple of pieces). This is very much a shame, as a class that is themed as a fencer/magic swordsman (look at the name on our gear if you don't believe me) is used as anything but.

I know suggestions have been kicked around and back-and-forth discussions on RDM melee have taken place for years, now. At the same time, nothing has ever been really done to make our melee side stand out in a way that we can use our swords as more than just soloing toys. While I acknowledge one or two individuals who tote the melee side of RDM as workable, I also note anyone wanting to do more than just heal, refresh and haste instantly meets notable resistance because the way our class is designed doesn't really help us say "I want to melee in this party and am justified in wanting to do so". To add insult to injury, we are so associated with heals, Refresh and Haste that I've even encountered individuals who say they'd be fine with RDM melee so long as the heals, refresh and haste are still coming from us.

Personally, we kind of need a way to define the roles we choose to undertake. I can't think of anything we as players can do to accomplish that. I'd think a change in mechanics for our class would be in order.

I have my own wishlist of changes for our class, but I just wanted to get that out of my chest and see how other people feel about the matter. I just think it's wasteful to have a class that dresses like a french musketeer and wields magic and a rapier but is used exclusively to heal and buff.

[rog]

I'm surprised this thread took so long.

Honestly, i think rdm melee is more or less fine how it is. With atma, etc, now, rdm can certainly hold their own with a sword. It's not so much the job, so much as the player base that makes it impossible. Of course some adjustments would help, but i don't think it needs anything major.

[Duelle]

I can understand that the playerbase is a monumental obstacle, but I don't think anyone can change the mind of that many people without some in-game intervention from the creators. I mean, we're talking about a mindset that has been around for several of years.

I also know how Atma has helped us in Abyssea, but I try to think beyond atma and of those leveling the job with no other roles available to them. They can't get away with standing in the front lines the way other jobs can. Not when people expect us to cover other roles in parties (roles that we unfortunately happen to be somewhat effective with).

Part of my issue comes from the lack of weapon skills. We have everything but the bread and butter sword WS natively. The equalizer was Chant du Cigne with DEX atma and a DEX build. I know some think empyrean weapons are easy to obtain, but I still consider it unreasonable that our class has to go several extra steps to start justifying a spot in the front. CDC should be the icing, not the base of the whole cake.

[rog]

I agree entirely about low levels, but honestly, they go so quick, i see little reason to bother trying to come up with a fix.

For 75+, rdm can still do well with evis, if they don't have CDC.

[Duelle]

For 75+, rdm can still do well with evis, if they don't have CDC.

I have a natural aversion to daggers, but point taken.

[Trangnai]

While Abyssea and ToTM have been great additions to our melee potential, it hasn't really opened the option in all areas. There are several things that are the cause of such. Honestly the rdm melee role isn't seen as effective due to alot of aspects of the job, playing the role players want you will be constantly forced to stop and cast.

My foremost concern is the lack of gear as our level increases, the few we get are rare and shared by multiple jobs that in most cases, could use the item better. due to such most items are in high demand and most LSes won't give up a piece of gear like that unless you have a DD job leveled. Other options are Augmented items such as the original add-on items and Mage pieces that we get that are lucky enough to have some boost to our melee abilities such as haste. Then of course theres older items such as dusk, rdm is one of the only jobs that can melee that still need dusk for a decent haste set, most other jobs that can use it have other options or only use it cause there lucky enough to have HQ.

In terms of Weapon Skills, while we lack sword Weapon Skills we still get most decent dagger WSes, excluding Dancing Edge sadly, Also keep in mind our best dagger atm is twilight knife, another high demand multi-job item. As for our swords, we have alot more options in terms of weapons, but lack in the Weapon Skill department our best WS by far is Death Blossom which while still being a good weapon skill, lacks the crit bonus of Vorpal Blade, due to such it can't take full advantage of Razed Ruins Like Vorpal, CDC, and for the dagger users Evisceration can. Sangune Blade is also a decent option due to our natural MAB and high INT as well as gear, something which most jobs that have access to the WS don't have, The worst part about it, is the fact that in order to access those Weapon Skills we must sub one of the jobs able to use it, Which means we cannot use /dnc or /nin, losing dual wield and lowering our damage output, as well as losing the additional support options that /dnc provides.

While composure was actually a nice boost to melee, it allows use to cap our accuracy easier, it does nothing for our other stats, most light DDs have some Job Abilities or Traits that give them the boost in dmg to allow them to more easily keep up with the high damage of two-handed weapons, thf has Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, blu has its spells, dnc has flourishes and in some cases steps and Sambas, nin, and dnc also have high levels of dual wield allowing to attack at a much quicker rate with two one handed weapons, mnk also has a similar aspect in the form of Martial Arts for its Hand-to-hand skill, ontop of that these jobs also get access to more haste gear, dex gear, crit rate and crit dmg gear then rdm, rdm has enspells but in most cases its not a high enough boost to be considered, and even with composure, we have to consistently re-cast it.

[Pyrsos]

a big (about 100%) boost to en-spell damage or en-spell cap would be perfect, since it would enable us to do more damage in a way that is specific to our job, and has its quirks, advantages, and even specific gear (Enhancing Sword +1 <Can I have it?>).

and it wouldn't be too much of a change in game mechanics or existing gear requirements. in fact something that could probably be changed and tested for any of the future minor upgrades.

maybe tier III en-spells?

[Trangnai]

That's a good idea actually, better yet a Job Trait that would give us a Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus while having en-spells up, much like Enhancing Sword, as well as giving rdms a higher cap on en-spell dmg and accuracy, allowing them to get the get more out of en-spells then other jobs.

[Pyrsos]

and it would also mean you have to know the way en-spells work (ie: day/weather bonuses, monster weaknes, etc). for me that's one of the most interesting aspects of rdm: you can (in fact you should!) adjust to each fight with your buffs (barspells, spikes) and debuffs / enspells.

most of the other jobs (blm and maybe blu being the exceptions) don't really need to care about elemental relations. and that's part of what makes our job different!

[Trangnai]

You should know how to do that regardless, but sadly, i see alot of rdms that run around casting enthunder and full timing mage gear when meleeing. I would also like to see boosts to rdms support role that increase the usefulness of the job on front lines.