Fostering Skillful Play

[Yinnyth]

In that sort of situation, I think the idea is that you either go with ranged damage which doesn't pull hate, or you have your DDs attack and retreat as needed. Or just attack, die, RR, unweak, and go back at it. As long as the tank can stay alive, the battle isn't over.

Things like ADL, however... the range on all his AoEs is 30, so if you're close enough to be of any help to the fight, you're close enough to get killed. They're just begging us to zerg him because a tank is worthless.

[Yinnyth]

A tank isn't "tanking" if other people are getting hit / killed by rapid fire aoes. That's why I mentioned severely restricting their range to 5~7 feet centered on tank or conal. It allows for strategy and positioning (stand near tank and die) while not requiring your DD's only be Aegis PLDs.

A tank also isn't "tanking" if DD's have to back down their damage potential, that is an artifact of FFXI's broken hate system. People really need to go play other MMOs for a bit and see how sane developers went about solving that balance issue.

Yes, the tank is "tanking", even if other idiots trip and fall on their own sword. The tank's job is to lessen the worries of other people regarding the attention they receive from enemies, not completely eliminate it. Claiming that tanks deserve to hold all of the hate all of the time is as short-sighted as saying that healers deserve to be able to keep all of the people alive all of the time, or DDs deserve to instantly kill enemies.

If you don't work for it, it's not a challenge. If it's not a challenge, then success is not an accomplishment. If it's not an accomplishment, it feels pointless. The job of a tank is impossible to accomplish currently. The solution is not to make the job of a tank impossible to fail. There is middle ground.

Also, if the tank can hold hate perfectly, and AoEs are only 5' around the tank, who the hell is going to EVER go near the tank? A thief sure as hell won't need to because they won't need to trick attack because the tank is already perfect at holding hate. DDs will just stay at the opposite side of the mob and unleash hell. Because DD isn't already the most boring and straightforward of all the roles a job can fill.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, the tank is "tanking", even if other idiots trip and fall on their own sword. The tank's job is to lessen the worries of other people regarding the attention they receive from enemies, not completely eliminate it. Claiming that tanks deserve to hold all of the hate all of the time is as short-sighted as saying that healers deserve to be able to keep all of the people alive all of the time, or DDs deserve to instantly kill enemies.

No, when mobs like Ironclads, Naraka, or Harpia use AoEs on literally every hit a tank becomes nothing, you are not tanking a mob if others are getting hit anyways. That I believe was the point.

[saevel]

Yes, the tank is "tanking", even if other idiots trip and fall on their own sword. The tank's job is to lessen the worries of other people regarding the attention they receive from enemies, not completely eliminate it. Claiming that tanks deserve to hold all of the hate all of the time is as short-sighted as saying that healers deserve to be able to keep all of the people alive all of the time, or DDs deserve to instantly kill enemies.

If you don't work for it, it's not a challenge. If it's not a challenge, then success is not an accomplishment. If it's not an accomplishment, it feels pointless. The job of a tank is impossible to accomplish currently. The solution is not to make the job of a tank impossible to fail. There is middle ground.

Also, if the tank can hold hate perfectly, and AoEs are only 5' around the tank, who the hell is going to EVER go near the tank? A thief sure as hell won't need to because they won't need to trick attack because the tank is already perfect at holding hate. DDs will just stay at the opposite side of the mob and unleash hell. Because DD isn't already the most boring and straightforward of all the roles a job can fill.

Get the f*ck out of FFXI. The "tank" your describing is the current PLD and we don't use them for precisely the reason I just illustrated. Their useless as they don't mitigate squat for total damage intake, sure they take less but your still having to heal everyone else and dealing with massive damage / status ailments. Having your DD"s "back off" just has the monster live longer which just further enhances total damage intake.

How can you not understand that it's total damage that's important not what a single sh!tty tank gets hit by. Right now I can put on my PDT/DT set and "tank" better then any current "tank" job / build, this is because not only can I generate vastly more CE/TE but I also deal more damage then they do. Why would anyone ever use a job that holds less hate and deals less damage when a different job can do better?

PDT/DT sets have now radically altered how DD's can play and if your not rocking one and don't understand this then your just being ignorant on this subject.

[Yinnyth]

Get the f*ck out of FFXI. The "tank" your describing is the current PLD and we don't use them for precisely the reason I just illustrated. Their useless as they don't mitigate squat for total damage intake, sure they take less but your still having to heal everyone else and dealing with massive damage / status ailments. Having your DD"s "back off" just has the monster live longer which just further enhances total damage intake.

How can you not understand that it's total damage that's important not what a single sh!tty tank gets hit by. Right now I can put on my PDT/DT set and "tank" better then any current "tank" job / build, this is because not only can I generate vastly more CE/TE but I also deal more damage then they do. Why would anyone ever use a job that holds less hate and deals less damage when a different job can do better?

PDT/DT sets have now radically altered how DD's can play and if your not rocking one and don't understand this then your just being ignorant on this subject.

I apologize that you feel this way about me.

Total damage intake is mitigated by a healer team capable of keeping up with that total damage intake. How long they can keep up with that damage intake is determined by their own enmity issues, how well they manage their MP/time, and how well the buff team keeps them refreshed. If damage intake reaches the thresh-hold where healers can no longer keep up, fall back or die. This is strategy. Where is the strategy in your proposed changes?

Please note that I am not saying the current system is fine. I want AoEs changed so they have some method of countering them. Imagine an enemy whose only AoE attacks affect you if you're further than 5' from him. How do you deal with this? Everyone stands close. So how is there any risk there? He's a buffalo that spams snort.

Right now, all AoEs work the same way. The only thing that changes is their range, damage, and additional effects. The fundamental problem is not that there are AoEs in the first place. It's that there's not enough variety in AoEs. This is an opportunity to add more tactics to the game. You're suggesting a complete removal of the system.

[saevel]

I apologize that you feel this way about me.

Total damage intake is mitigated by a healer team capable of keeping up with that total damage intake. How long they can keep up with that damage intake is determined by their own enmity issues, how well they manage their MP/time, and how well the buff team keeps them refreshed. If damage intake reaches the thresh-hold where healers can no longer keep up, fall back or die. This is strategy. Where is the strategy in your proposed changes?

Please note that I am not saying the current system is fine. I want AoEs changed so they have some method of countering them. Imagine an enemy whose only AoE attacks affect you if you're further than 5' from him. How do you deal with this? Everyone stands close. So how is there any risk there? He's a buffalo that spams snort.

Right now, all AoEs work the same way. The only thing that changes is their range, damage, and additional effects. The fundamental problem is not that there are AoEs in the first place. It's that there's not enough variety in AoEs. This is an opportunity to add more tactics to the game. You're suggesting a complete removal of the system.

*slams head on desk*

You really need to go experience different MMO's to understand what I'm talking about.

AoE's are ~all~ the same no matter the game. They are attacks that effect multiple targets typically defined by a geographic area (go figure that). They comprise damage and / or status ailments, that's all there is to it. If non-tank members are being hit by crippling damage then the tank is useless and should be replaced by another DD who will do the exact same job only better.

Lets take ADL for example but first we'll give the PLD some super duper JA that gives them 100% perma hate and a super amazing build that mitigates 99% of damage taken. A *perfect* tank. We'll also make an assumption that after split all hate is 100% on this super perfect tank.

ADL appears *RAWR*
Tank rush's in use's super JA, ADL now has 100% hate on the tank.
Melee's *WHACK WHACK*
ADL splits and use's Oblivion Smash x 2, continues to spam AOEs

Tank takes 50 damage and laughs
support line dies, half the melee's are dead (slight exaggeration)


Yeah ... that worked out really well for you. Perfect tank did exactly jack sh1t for that fight. Now replace that tank with another DD and you'll kill it faster

You can use that example with every single NM possibly imaginable.

B3 (Big Bad Boss) appears
Perfect Tank use's super special JA has 100% hate
DD's whack whack
B3 use's Yinnyth sanctioned moves of death to encourage "strategy"
Tank survives, everyone else dies
Tank then dies due to everyone else being dead

Even inserting healers being "safe" you now have a tank and nothing else fighting the NM. Welcome to 2hr Kirins, who here is for the 2hr Kirins that Yinnyth wants?


It's that simple, a tank by definition is there to soak up the monsters most devastating attacks. If those attacks are MT large AoE's then again by definition they can not soak them up. You no longer have a "tank" and instead have a single gimp a$$ melee who's job can be done better by nearly another other melee.

Anyhow if by now you don't understand the basic mechanics of raiding and boss fighting then there's nothing I else I can do. FFXI has an absolute horrible implementation of battle mechanics, do not base any concepts on experience from FFXI. All I can say is go play another MMO and get involved in it's raiding scene to see how this works. Then when you come back to FFXI you'll see how sh1tty the current system is and what I'm talking about.

[Sarick]

A tank isn't "tanking" if other people are getting hit / killed by rapid fire aoes. That's why I mentioned severely restricting their range to 5~7 feet centered on tank or conal. It allows for strategy and positioning (stand near tank and die) while not requiring your DD's only be Aegis PLDs.

A tank also isn't "tanking" if DD's have to back down their damage potential, that is an artifact of FFXI's broken hate system. People really need to go play other MMOs for a bit and see how sane developers went about solving that balance issue.

An idea I thought of was making cover ability every 30 seconds. When the PLD uses this they're watching who the enemy they are engaged with is currently attacking and they have a high percentage chance of auto-covering if the target is a party/alliance member near them. The amount of covers successful would start at 80% success and decrease 10%-20% each successful cover. To help with hate, the target covered would lose enmity as though they was hit and the PLD would gain it for interfering IE: PISSING OFF the enemy more.

Hate or not one way to make the PLD job more viable without giving it extra attack or enmity burst is to create a strong hate-less system that gives a percentage chance to auto cover players near them no matter what the hate is. This would make the PLD TANK ROLE more realistic. The class itself as a role would still need enmity to try and hold hate but even when hate is lost they'd still attempt to block attacks regardless of enmity. This shifts the enmity problem to the job class more then the broken enmity system.

Currently the only way PLDS can cover or block attacks is if #1 the pld to hold hate #2 the PLD uses cover on one player directly behind them. #3 everyone else on the enemies hate list is dead or hate reset.

Pethetic.

In previous Final Fantasy games cover was automatic and auto assisted. The player would automatically jump to cover players. Players could also use invisible to evade many attacks. This had nasty side effects though at times because enemies could use abilities on them that killed them only while invisible. Talk about strategy.

I don't know how we lost so much skill when A lot of enemy bosses in abby needed skill. The red light green light stuff where enemies would heal if flat out zerging, enfeebles increasing enemy attacks, procing at the right to to prevent death. Zombie type status effects. Proper distance to avoid AOES, statuses etc.

Even though they wasn't hard if fought improperly they could be made impossible to kill.

[Elphy]

*slams head on desk*

I kindda think your missing the point. Tanks should be there to tank and no they should not be a dd.

Spamming AOE is one thing and no boss should spam devistating aoe unless there is a mechanic or s-t-r-a-t-e-g-y that can get you around the aoe or cause the boss to stop the spam. DD should never be able to hack and slash to their little blood lusting hearts content. That creates an incredible imbalance when you have 22 jobs, each with a particular skill set.
Unless of course they want to make it so my dnc does the same damage as your sam or my sch can have equally damaging nukes as your blm and healing potential of your whm. What they want to do is get away from the hack and slash mentality, which I would LOVE if they did.

The zergfest of ffxi is getting old and stale and being someone who doesnt need to have the biggest sword to compensate for having the least skill I welcome skillful play changes.

It would be fantastic if tanks had to utilize their job abilities in certain ways in certain situations to do their jobs, and mages had to emfeeble and chain spells to create the desired effect and a dd who had to use their ws and ja in certain ways to deal damage and everyone should know their limitations.

No game should ever just be a zergfest, and thats why alot of other mmo's are dying out fast, all jobs do the same thing and all content is about doing as much damage as you can the fastest.

[Yinnyth]

If non-tank members are being hit by crippling damage then the tank is useless and should be replaced by another DD who will do the exact same job only better.

If I had to distill everything we've been debating into a single statement showing the disconnect between our understanding of one another, it would be this previous statement. To me, it appears as though you want tanks to be able to not just be perfect at holding hate, but be the only players at risk of taking any damage. To you, it appears as though I want ADL's ability to use 4x terra slash and wipe the whole alliance to remain intact.

I do not. I've never said I want AoEs to remain the way they currently are. I want them changed too. But I don't want to cripple them to the point where they're no longer a part of the difficulty of a fight. I want there to be a large number of diverse and challenging ways to avoid AoEs. Sometimes you need to be close to the enemy, sometimes you need to be far, sometimes you need to run from the AoE because it has a tiny area of effect and a long chargeup, sometimes you need to stun the AoE, sometimes you need to be in front of, behind, or to the side of the enemy, sometimes there's no avoiding the AoE but it has horrible magic accuracy so a barspell will save you.

B3 (Big Bad Boss) appears
Perfect Tank use's super special JA has 100% hate
DD's whack whack
B3 use's Yinnyth sanctioned moves of death to encourage "strategy"
Tank survives, everyone else dies
Tank then dies due to everyone else being dead

Apparantly there was no avoiding these moves of death, just like how the current system works. Therefore these moves would not be sanctioned by Yinnyth. If there's nothing that can be done to pre-empt, avoid, negate, stop, shrug off, or otherwise minimize the effects of a deadly AoE attack, then it needs to be fixed. If it's something crazy weak like bubble shower, then it's no big deal. If it's something crazy strong like Thundris Shriek, give us a work-around.

[saevel]

I kindda think your missing the point. Tanks should be there to tank and no they should not be a dd.

Spamming AOE is one thing and no boss should spam devistating aoe unless there is a mechanic or s-t-r-a-t-e-g-y that can get you around the aoe or cause the boss to stop the spam. DD should never be able to hack and slash to their little blood lusting hearts content. That creates an incredible imbalance when you have 22 jobs, each with a particular skill set.
Unless of course they want to make it so my dnc does the same damage as your sam or my sch can have equally damaging nukes as your blm and healing potential of your whm. What they want to do is get away from the hack and slash mentality, which I would LOVE if they did.

The zergfest of ffxi is getting old and stale and being someone who doesnt need to have the biggest sword to compensate for having the least skill I welcome skillful play changes.

It would be fantastic if tanks had to utilize their job abilities in certain ways in certain situations to do their jobs, and mages had to emfeeble and chain spells to create the desired effect and a dd who had to use their ws and ja in certain ways to deal damage and everyone should know their limitations.

No game should ever just be a zergfest, and thats why alot of other mmo's are dying out fast, all jobs do the same thing and all content is about doing as much damage as you can the fastest.

Read what I'm writing

It's that simple, a tank by definition is there to soak up the monsters most devastating attacks. If those attacks are MT large AoE's then again by definition they can not soak them up. You no longer have a "tank" and instead have a single gimp a$$ melee who's job can be done better by nearly another other melee.