Remove or decrease race penalties

[FrankReynolds]

So if you don't need to change races (meaning the change provides negligible to non-existent bonuses), then therefore reducing or eliminating race differences is equally unnecessary.

Or we just don't need to have them at all. The real question is not whether or not the racial stats make a difference. The question is whether or not they enhance the enjoyment of the game. A few people think they are a good thing because they think that it somehow makes them a more unique and special snowflake. While others (myself included) find them to be a nuisance which causes a lot of problems without any real tangible benefit.

I was responding to the suggestion that players chose a race for the job they wanted to play, only to have SE change that job and force the player(s) to chose a different job. Don't take my response as an original idea to make it sound less credible. The original suggestion wasn't credible and that was the point of my response.

You were insinuating that it was the players responsibility to pick a race based on the jobs they want to play, which in a game that never changes would still be a difficult task because a person can't really know what they like until they have tried it and at that point it is too late to change.

In reality though, the devs keep adding jobs and events which means that a players taste is highly subject to change. It is virtually impossible to choose the correct race if you play for any reasonable amount of time.

For example: Joey picks his race based on his desire to play red mage. The devs continuously make red mage suck (true story. You can check on this). Joey decides that even though he loves red mage, he must become a monk to be successful in end game and contribute to events with his friends. Didn't joey get shit on enough already by having his job become weak and undesired? do you really need him to have to re-roll his character and waste months / years redoing everything now too? Why are you so sadistic?

So you've never played a game like, oh, I don't know, WoW, or DND? You've never played a game where you select race -and- job and they're frozen (aside from sub/secondaries)?

This game has 20(22) jobs that you can change to at any time. It has nothing to do with WoW's job system and that is one of it's biggest selling points.

"11" was an example, but the fact remains that the argument to lower (or reduce) race differences is fundamentally so that DDs aren't "gimped" my something so trivial.

And why should they be?

[Llana_Virren]

Or we just don't need to have them at all. The real question is not whether or not the racial stats make a difference. The question is whether or not they enhance the enjoyment of the game. A few people think they are a good thing because they think that it somehow makes them a more unique and special snowflake. While others (myself included) find them to be a nuisance which causes a lot of problems without any real tangible benefit.



You were insinuating that it was the players responsibility to pick a race based on the jobs they want to play, which in a game that never changes would still be a difficult task because a person can't really know what they like until they have tried it and at that point it is too late to change.

In reality though, the devs keep adding jobs and events which means that a players taste is highly subject to change. It is virtually impossible to choose the correct race if you play for any reasonable amount of time.

For example: Joey picks his race based on his desire to play red mage. The devs continuously make red mage suck (true story. You can check on this). Joey decides that even though he loves red mage, he must become a monk to be successful in end game and contribute to events with his friends. Didn't joey get shit on enough already by having his job become weak and undesired? do you really need him to have to re-roll his character and waste months / years redoing everything now too? Why are you so sadistic?



This game has 20(22) jobs that you can change to at any time. It has nothing to do with WoW's job system and that is one of it's biggest selling points.



And why should they be?

So the major crux is, "reducing race differences serves no purpose, so therefore, its valid and should be done."

Because if you think you're "gimped" by being on a certain race, yet you think its playstyle, not race choice, that determines a players' mettle, then you're running down your own argument.

Either race differences matter, and therefore should remain in place because they are designed to matter, or race differences don't matter and therefore should not remain in place because of a non-existent way that they do matter while not mattering.

[Demon6324236]

Either race differences matter, and therefore should remain in place because they are designed to matter, or race differences don't matter and therefore should not remain in place because of a non-existent way that they do matter while not mattering.

Or races matter because they give much more HP than one another so certain races get 1shotted in any roll as a front line job while others can take a couple hits, and thus should be removed.

[FrankReynolds]

Either race differences matter, and therefore should remain in place because they are designed to matter, or race differences don't matter and therefore should not remain in place because of a non-existent way that they do matter while not mattering.

It's already been shown in this thread that there are differences in damage output (albeit small, they are still there) and that the differences in HP and to a far lesser extent MP can be game changing. These things create an advantage / disadvantage. Stop saying they don't exist. The differences have been spelled out.

These advantages should be removed because they are outdated. Everyone has their own opinion as to why the were placed in the game in the first place. I contend that that reason no longer exists and that they have become detrimental to the game (if they were ever good in the first place) and should therefore be removed.

Here's the bottom line. If they release a job that uses <insert stat here> as the basis for damage calculation or as the basis for damage reduction etc., I shouldn't get screwed out of being good at that job because I picked a race 8 years before they created the job. That's not how you treat long time customers. Anyone who says otherwise is full of crap.

[Llana_Virren]

Here's the bottom line. If they release a job that uses <insert stat here> as the basis for damage calculation or as the basis for damage reduction etc., I shouldn't get screwed out of being good at that job because I picked a race 8 years before they created the job. That's not how you treat long time customers. Anyone who says otherwise is full of crap.

And if you think that your difference in STR, or MP, or even HP between one race and another, is the difference between being good or not at a given job, then you have bigger problems.

[Byrth]

Except mobs under your level don't get LCF yet they won't hit you for 0 without phalanx / stoneskin up (negative fSTR zeroing out their base damage notwithstanding)

Go fight a level 38 goblin as a BLU/WAR with defender + cocoon / harden shell up. It's ratio should be way under .5 and thus pDiffmin should be 0. You should see 0's yet you'll see low numbers but not 0's. You see this with brews inside abyssea, go brew Itzpapalotl and let it hit you. You have 9999 defense, its a level 92~95 NM so without a doubt Decent Challenge and absolutely no LCF. It also does not have 1000+ attack, very few NMs have that much. It should be hitting you for straight 0's (50% of time), yet it doesn't.

Monsters have a ratio floor just like we do, except in their case pDiffmin can never hit 0. There is a point at which adding more defense will not do anything, and it's something that easy to hit provided the monster isn't 5+ levels above you.

This does not indicate that there is a non-0 ratio floor. Ratio has a minimum of 0 as long as monster attack is a positive number, and monster pDIF is different from Player pDIF. Similarly, player pDIF doesn't have a non-0 "floor."

In order to show that their Ratio is floored to a non-0 value, you'd have to:
1) Set yourself up with a certain VIT
2) Let them hit you enough that you're pretty sure you've seen their entire damage range
3) Increase your Defense without affecting your VIT
4) Show that their damage range is unchanged

Then you will have shown that they are Ratio floored. As a side-note, you'd need a monster with high enough base damage that you can detect small changes in their upper damage/swing limit even when you have very high defense.

[Byrth]

And if you think that your difference in STR, or MP, or even HP between one race and another, is the difference between being good or not at a given job, then you have bigger problems.

BRB, re-rolling as an Elvaan DD with NQ gear because stats other than HP don't matter.

[Llana_Virren]

BRB, re-rolling as an Elvaan DD with NQ gear because stats other than HP don't matter.

If they didn't matter you wouldn't be re-rolling.

Just because they do matter, and it works against you, doesn't mean it should be changed.

[FrankReynolds]

If they didn't matter you wouldn't be re-rolling.

Just because they do matter, and it works against you, doesn't mean it should be changed.

Yes, it does. He pays the bills. Who do you think they keep this game going for? The martians?

They are probably reading these forums to see:

A) Are there lot of people who want this changed ?

and

B) Do they have a good reason?

So far our reasons seem to be:

A) Current game mechanics make this a major issue for some races. Tarus in particular.
B) Re-rolling sucks
C) Being held back by something you cannot change sucks
D) Every other aspect of your character can be modified after the fact and we enjoy that about this game.

You don't seem to have the majority vote. Most people agree that they should be balanced out in one way or another although not everyone agrees on how, so you better come up with a more convincing argument than what you have so far.

[Demon6324236]

And if you think that your difference in STR, or MP, or even HP between one race and another, is the difference between being good or not at a given job, then you have bigger problems.

I assure you, you can be the greatest Taru WAR ever, if mobs still kill you in 1~2 attack rounds because of your HP while an equally badass Galka takes 2~4 hits, there is a problem.