Intelligent Casting Attachment

[Rafien]

Like Alhanelem pointed out, our automatons are dumb. To fix that issue, we have to use attachments (Which I just showed that it didn't work). To change the pet for a BST, they change the jug their using and call beast. For SMN, they just resummon a new avatar. For PUP's, we deactiavate the automaton (Must be at full health even missing 1 HP and you're out of luck), unattach all attachments, change the body piece, change the head piece, and go through our LONG list of attachments to equip which ones we need/want. Than, because the Automaton doesn't function right, we have to remove one of the things we want/need to fix our automaton from doing stupid stuff like silencing mob.

Want to talk about attention. The new gear they just released, only 1 piece, standard leg gear, is for the automaton.

[Glamdring]

It's just that every update they try to fix pup, and apparently it never is fixed and pups still want more. Please look at it objectively and see how jobs are not being fixed equally, its so much focus on pup. Yet it never gets fixed. Didn't we all say last huge pup update, "I hope this is it now and pup is fixed:. Yet there are still complaints. Wasn't there a recent update that totally redid pup AI? Am i mistaken? Did this not happen? Why wasn't this AI fixed then?

Siiri, question. Apparently you read the forums based on your statements. Have you EVER seen players just be happy with a job adjustment and leave it alone? I'll answer that one for you because it's quicker than waiting for a reply; no you haven't, because it's never happened. See, the players can't even agree on a direction a job should go. There are a bunch that seem to think that if they can't 1-shot AV their job is gimp and irrelevant. If SE "fixes" that, there are a bunch of players who say "well now what am I supposed to do?" You can never please everyone.

Now SE-unlike many of the players-DOES worry about balance. However, balance does not mean what the players on here seem to think it means, which is get every job to the same DPS job X has. It's to make every job equally relevant. It's not SE's fault that players won't look beyond Zerg as a way to accomplish anything in the game. In addition, SE is trying to avoid content that can only be beaten in a narrow choice of ways because they want us to have a choice in how we play. Again, the players choose not to consider it, they just zerg and if that doesn't work they say the content is broken, not considering maybe what is broken is their ability to strategize.

So you get alot of baseless job adjustment requests. But here's the thing, when a job adjustment doesn't put the job back in "the mix" for party consideration then the players' requests are not necessarily baseless, it's because the last adjustment clearly didn't work. Now, some of those requests-while not baseless-may still be asinine. This isn't one of them on those grounds. On the other hand, this still won't work to make pup viable. You may have noticed that I used the term Zerg a few times above, referring to it as the only game strat. For those that have never played a mage job allow me to point out that mages DO NOT ZERG. So all the casting adjustments you want won't change the fact that current "strategists" really only want them to beef Valoredge and our DPS. I'm not saying "don't do this", I'm just saying it's not going to get us any more party slots than we get now.

[Mercilessturtle]

Hello!

Along the lines of “intelligent casting,” I just wanted to add a bit about enhancing magic cast by automatons.

When it comes to the way automatons cast enhancing magic, they prioritize their master’s safety above all else and start out by casting defensive spells first.

There have been some players mentioning that they would like to make haste more of a priority as opposed to stoneskin and phalanx being cast first.

It is definitely possible to change the priority order and additionally we can even make it so the automaton will decide which spell to cast based on the level of the monster you are fighting. So for example, prioritizing stoneskin for stronger monsters and prioritizing haste for monsters evenly matched or below.

With that said, we will be looking into adjustments!

Please swap the priority of phalanx and stoneskin. Right now stoneskin comes first. But phalanx makes stoneskin last longer, so it makes more sense to prioritize it. And in particular, the current behavior causes a problem where he'll cast stoneskin, then by the time his next enhancing cast delay is ready, stoneskin has already been worn down and he re-casts it. So he just sits there spamming stoneskin non-stop and never does any other buffs.

[Toadie-Odie]

So you want something like the FFXII Gambit System for PUP...?

Okay, my response is coming from a long time lover of BST so all you PUPs out please don't kill me if I'm off base here. Yes, I have leveled PUP to 99 but I really just like BST more.

And this is why:

* The automaton is a puppet that is built, customized, and controled. This concept is brought in during the PUP flag quest and artifact quests.

*If this magical machine is something that is built, customized, and controled WHY CAN'T I PROGRAM IT TOO? I mean it's a machine for crying out loud. Sentient and self aware, but still a machine. Why can't we get key item AI chips to select like BLU sets spell and assemble them in a priority order?

I don't know if this is what people are talking when they are asking for a gambit system, but I think it's something that could be done since part of the mechanics I've suggested already exist in the game.

I don't know I think it would be fun to program my little guy and let him go to see what he does - kinda like what you do in the old game Carnage Hearts. I really think that is what PUP is missing, the ability to tinker with the puppet's AI with CPU chips or something.

[Glamdring]

Okay, my response is coming from a long time lover of BST so all you PUPs out please don't kill me if I'm off base here. Yes, I have leveled PUP to 99 but I really just like BST more.And this is why:* The automaton is a puppet that is built, customized, and controled. This concept is brought in during the PUP flag quest and artifact quests. *If this magical machine is something that is built, customized, and controled WHY CAN'T I PROGRAM IT TOO? I mean it's a machine for crying out loud. Sentient and self aware, but still a machine. Why can't we get key item AI chips to select like BLU sets spell and assemble them in a priority order? I don't know if this is what people are talking when they are asking for a gambit system, but I think it's something that could be done since part of the mechanics I've suggested already exist in the game. I don't know I think it would be fun to program my little guy and let him go to see what he does - kinda like what you do in the old game Carnage Hearts. I really think that is what PUP is missing, the ability to tinker with the puppet's AI with CPU chips or something.

@Toadie this is indeed what the OP is asking for. It’s not a universal request among pups. Here’s why. The more control given to the master, the more time the master has to spend on control, thus sacrificing time we could be DD/tanking. There are a large number that already complain about the lost 3 seconds/minute from our DD time just to keep manuvers up as it is. This is somewhat a split among pups much the way the melee rdms and casting rdms had a dispuute, although nowhere near as big of a split.

While I agree with you that the blu spell mechanics are in place I don’t think the adaptation to autos is as straightforward as you think. Our auto still has AI. While we can influence trends with manuvers (and the underlying frame/attachments) we have no conscious control of the actual cast, which is a complex series of timers, 12 variable attachment slots (with about 50 possible attachments), 4 possible bodies, 6 heads and 8 manuvers, all of which can be used in any combination. Then, how long is the potential spell list for each permutation? Now factor in the conditional variables; HP, MP, state of buffs, presence of debuffs of master, auto and prey; gear adjustments; scanner feedback, etc. Therefore, if we were to program our autos the shift of 1 attachment or manuver or whatever would require us to redo our entire casting program. Couple that with us not being able to save our auto set-ups and it’s just more complexity than most would ever be willing to put up with.

Personally, the level of algorithm analysis gives me a migraine just trying to think about it. And no matter what, some casting will be stupid. Auto’s will not cast during downtime. I have died a couple times when out with my rdm auto in the following scenario: been fighting undead for awhile, currently, I have Bio 3 and para on me and orange HP, ice, light and dark manuvers up, SS and phalanx are down as pup/dnc; I WS; auto scans that prey will die to a single thunder 4 and so nukes INSTEAD of curing me-dead prey. Now my HP is in the red from DoT, my healing waltz was blocked by para, I have no meds and I’m in a blood aggro area so I don’t dare send auto out to engage something so it might cure me, I don’t have TP for a curing waltz, and I can’t even kneel down to heal due to the DoT; dead. Did auto stupidcast? Yes and no. Ordinarily, a dead mob is a GOOD thing, because it isn’t hitting/casting on me. The real problem here is that autos don’t cast during downtime, if they did, all would be well. It’s programmed tho’ to think in combat terms with no thought to aftermath of the fight, where it does nothing. Honestly, more than a stupid casting fix i think the ability to cast when not in combat would be a bigger upgrade. After all, most jobs that buff do so BEFORE fights instead of waiting for during... and most healers will heal melees during downtime as well.

Now, our blm auto, that’s a whole different kettle of fish. Remember the old days of playing with idiot blms in parties that used tanks, DDs, healers and the like, then some idiot blm casts some AM, pulls hate off the tank and ends up wiping the party because it wasn’t enough to 1-shot the prey? Yeah, that asshat was reincarnated as your spiritreaver head. Pup really isn’t that gifted in the tanking department against a blm that is popping Thunder 5 at every oportunity, having only 2 JA on long timers, whatever we packed in terms of our SJ, our melee damage and the dismiss/recall tactic with this guy. It’s just tricky, and one of the reasons I never really see blm auto used with a soloing pup. Maybe if it would use Dread Spikes first... or if it was given sleep, bind, etc. like a real blm? Otherwise, having it cast tier 4 nukes until the prey can be 1 shot by a tier 5, again, like a real blm, or just holding off until the tank (the master) has established enough hate?

[Toadie-Odie]

While I agree with you that the blu spell mechanics are in place I don’t think the adaptation to autos is as straightforward as you think. Our auto still has AI. While we can influence trends with manuvers (and the underlying frame/attachments) we have no conscious control of the actual cast, which is a complex series of timers, 12 variable attachment slots (with about 50 possible attachments), 4 possible bodies, 6 heads and 8 manuvers, all of which can be used in any combination. Then, how long is the potential spell list for each permutation? Now factor in the conditional variables; HP, MP, state of buffs, presence of debuffs of master, auto and prey; gear adjustments; scanner feedback, etc. Therefore, if we were to program our autos the shift of 1 attachment or manuver or whatever would require us to redo our entire casting program. Couple that with us not being able to save our auto set-ups and it’s just more complexity than most would ever be willing to put up with.

Thank you for breaking that down, because you're right I did think it was a simple thing. And it is simple from a player's perspective to just set chips on a board and see what happens. But for a programmer... in retrospect I think it might prove to be a nightmare. And for those players out there that don't enjoy fiddling around and tinkering with things would set out to find and lynch me because the automan won't do what they thought they told it to do.

Honestly, more than a stupid casting fix i think the ability to cast when not in combat would be a bigger upgrade. After all, most jobs that buff do so BEFORE fights instead of waiting for during... and most healers will heal melees during downtime as well.

You know... I wonder if they could implement a job ability or key item quest that would allow you to give it idle commands?

Now, our blm auto, that’s a whole different kettle of fish. Remember the old days of playing with idiot blms in parties that used tanks, DDs, healers and the like, then some idiot blm casts some AM, pulls hate off the tank and ends up wiping the party because it wasn’t enough to 1-shot the prey? Yeah, that asshat was reincarnated as your spiritreaver head.

That was an awesome analogy and it made my day. lol

Pup really isn’t that gifted in the tanking department against a blm that is popping Thunder 5 at every oportunity, having only 2 JA on long timers, whatever we packed in terms of our SJ, our melee damage and the dismiss/recall tactic with this guy. It’s just tricky, and one of the reasons I never really see blm auto used with a soloing pup.

I have a hard time making the BLM automaton to function well in a low-man party, nevermind solo.

So I guess I will amend my suggestion with a question. How difficult would it be to integrate the option to alter the order of priorities - as in a master list before you place attachments?

For instance, I could have the RDM automaton out and spam Light Manuevars all night but it still tends to favor enfeebling over healing. Could we have some way to order the following roles/option/priority sets as we liked:

• preservation of life
• optimal damage
• support (enfeebling and buffing)

Then placement of attachments would further adjust/augment/support the priority list. Granted some attachments would be ill-suited for some roles - some could even slightly override the settings.

How feasable would this be for players and programmers alike?

[Glamdring]

@Toadie, sorry, I didn't mean to come off as opposed to your idea in a general way and I'm not a programmer myself-at least not since the days of Pascal being a viable language (yeah, I'm old, so?). Also, like you beast is my primary job, pup is a sideline I enjoy. That being said, I like yuor more current suggestion. I'm the type who actually likes the current amount of activity needed for battlefield control, since it's sort of "fire and forget". But yes, I do wish there was more of an ability to set priorities-without having to double or triple manuvers-since that leads to overload issues, especially if you need to ice (that manuver just seems to have the highest overload rate, but that could be entirely subjective, damned if I'm gonna chart it for a month to test).

but now that I really think about it, idle commands is probably the single-most useful upgrade for our casters I can think of (well, whm and rdm at least, maybe Harley as well). And manuvers DO have an effect during downtime, specifically light and dark for regen/refresh on our auto. Why can't we make it cast? Smn can, I think drg can and I know NPC fellows will, why not autos? I don't see that as being that high impact on balance since it will take away from down-time MP recovery so there's already a trade-off. Devs? your thoughts?

[Toadie-Odie]

I wasn't offended it's just your post caused me to rethink the topic. Your example really struck me how nice it would be to have an idle command upgrade. I would love for it to be a quest reward of some kind, like story-wise you are starting to learn how to build/repair the automaton, not just use it.

I read in another thread someone suggesting new animators with new effects and controls over the automaton. What if some of these new animators had behavior priorites set on them?

I honestly have a lot of difficulty with PUP simply because I think I started with BST first. There has been so many times that I forget myself and try to make the automaton behave like a BST pet... and end up dead very quickly. ^^; This isn't anyone's fault but my own.

I tried SMN but it ended up resting at lv30. Not sure when I'll get back to it. It just wigs me out that the avatar can chose to attack on its own. BST pets will only switch/attack enemies it currently has hate on it. Meanwhile the automaton only acts when you tell it to act.

The trick is getting the automaton to understand what you want it to do and right now I feel we have little control over that. In essence the maneuvers are very vague commands. It's like shouting at your kid "do something!" and then end up angry because he ran off and did something you didn't want him to do. I don't mind the automaton deciding what action to take but I would like to fine tune the message the maneuvers carry to my automaton, so that it's saying more than just "do something!".

[SpankWustler]

I like this metaphor:

It's like shouting at your kid "do something!" and then end up angry because he ran off and did something you didn't want him to do. I don't mind the automaton deciding what action to take but I would like to fine tune the message the maneuvers carry to my automaton, so that it's saying more than just "do something!".

Like your kid multitasking by picking up the cat and starting to chew on its head while he or she completes a task because that task brings the kid within ten feet of the long-suffering cat, the Automaton can perform an undesired or flatly terrible weapon-skill because maneuvers control those as well.

Given, weapon-skill priority is more an issue with the melee frames, but still seems worth mentioning in any discussion.

[Toadie-Odie]

I like this metaphor:



Like your kid multitasking by picking up the cat and starting to chew on its head while he or she completes a task because that task brings the kid within ten feet of the long-suffering cat, the Automaton can perform an undesired or flatly terrible weapon-skill because maneuvers control those as well.

Given, weapon-skill priority is more an issue with the melee frames, but still seems worth mentioning in any discussion.

EXACTLY! I discovered very quickly with my autistic son that vague instructions can be dangerous. My other son at age 3 does precisely that sort of thing with my mother's cat. lol Thus why I used kids for my analogy because my automaton often makes me feel like I'm talking to my sons and I would like to be able to adjust communications with the pet so that the instructions are a little more clear.

Again, don't mind the idea of the automaton chosing it's actions. I would just like to have a little more influence on the AI that makes those choices.

PS: My 3-year-old finds your sig image fasinating. lol Too bad he doesn't recognize who those dogs are.