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  1. #21
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Greetings!

    The post made on the Japanese forums the other day in regards to dragoon was a response to a player asking to have the timers split. This response was not mentioning that the development team would definitely be splitting the timers, it was only illustrating what would have to happen to the new special ability as well as the current jump cool down timers in the event that they were to change. I apologize for there not being an official translation of this and for any confusion.

    Basically, IF they were to split the timers the below changes would have to be made to the new special ability and jump abilities:
    • New special ability
      • Effect duration: 45 seconds (no change)
      • Recast time for each jump: Increase time from 10 seconds to 15 seconds
    • Recast time for each jump
      • Jump: 60 seconds (no change)
      • High Jump: 120 seconds (no change)
      • Spirit Jump: Increase from 60 seconds to 90 seconds
      • Soul Jump: Increase from 120 seconds to 180 seconds
      • Merit points used to reduce Jump/High Jump recast timers will be changed so the effect does not apply to Spirit Jump/Soul Jump
    If you feel strongly or have feedback to give on this we would be happy to pass it on to the development team.
    (8)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  2. #22
    Player Babekeke's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
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    2,273
    Character
    Babekeke
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    [*]Merit points used to reduce Jump/High Jump recast timers will be changed so the effect does not apply to Spirit Jump/Soul Jump

    If you feel strongly or have feedback to give on this we would be happy to pass it on to the development team.
    Thank you Camate. With regards to this statement, I do feel strongly, and I'm sure others do too. Might I propose that if these changes were to come into effect, the merit point categories change from:

    Jump Recast: Each level of this enhancement decreases the recast time of Jump by 2 seconds, to a minimum recast time of 50 seconds.

    To:

    Spirit Jump Recast: Each level of this enhancement decreases the recast time of Spirit Jump by 3 seconds, to a minimum recast time of 75 seconds.

    And from:

    High Jump Recast: Each level of this enhancement decreases the recast time of High Jump by 4 seconds, to a minimum recast time of 1 minute, 40 seconds.

    To:

    Soul Jump Recast: Each level of this enhancement decreases the recast time of Soul Jump by 6 seconds, to a minimum recast time of 2 minutes, 30 seconds.

    Personally though, I don't see that we'd get much benefit from having the jump timers split like this, only that the price of 'Jump' gear will rise, as we'll be using jump/high jump again. More inv space lost >.>
    (4)

  3. #23
    Player DaBackpack's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    44
    Character
    Dabackpack
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    I'm pretty sure that splitting the Jump timers in the proposed way does much worse for DRG than good. Someone better at FFXI math can explain better than I can, but unless Jump or High Jump get buffed on a level comparable to Spirit/Soul Jump, your damage output is negatively affected by using Jump and High Jump because of JA delay.

    In other words, we still won't be using Jump/High Jump, but now our recasts for Spirit/Soul Jumps are increased. This is bad.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the impression I got.

    EDIT: Yeah, better explanations are given at the start of this thread.
    (10)
    Last edited by DaBackpack; 11-14-2012 at 04:36 AM.

  4. #24
    Player Martel's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    202
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Nononononono, please no. If splitting jump timers comes at the cost of nerfing the hell outta spirit/soul jump timers, then no thanks.

    The potential new timers have been looked into mathematically already and really, splitting timers with those recasts is a DPS nerf for DRG. As much as I'd have liked the use of all four jumps, done like this, it's not worth it.

    /sigh, and I was so excited when I first saw the new DRG SP. Immediately followed by nerf, nerf, then the nerf bat looms over non-SP DRG too...

    Throw DRG a bone here. The Original 0 recast jump SP wasn't anymore broken than Mighty Strikes is already(and that's before adding the new DA SP.) And splitting jump timers with the current recasts isn't suddenly going to push DRG to the top of the DD chart.

    Honestly, considering the accumulation of JA delay on melee rounds from spamming so many JA, the value of jump/high jump is questionable during high haste zergs(90% of current content.)
    (10)

  5. #25
    Player Ryx's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    56
    Character
    Rayix
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    I'm gonna have to agree here.

    While it might sound nice to have the additional job abilities from splitting the recast, hurting spirit/soul jump will only have negative consequences on the overall output of Dragoon. Spirit and Soul jump are just stronger and more useful than the original jumps while the wyvern is present.

    Splitting jump timers would mostly go to make Dragoon that much better at job ability procs in dynamis, something we're already great at. We don't need this.

    If the devs really want to split jump timers, then please do it like this:
    Jump: Returned to its original 90 seconds recast
    High Jump: Returned to its orginal 180 seconds recast
    Spirit Jump: Left at its current 60 seconds recast
    Soul Jump: Left at its current 120 seconds recast
    Dragoon Group 1 Merits:
    • Change Jump merits to Spirit Jump merits
    • Change High Jump merits to Soul Jump merits

    I think I speak for the community on this one: Do NOT hurt spirit/soul jump. If it's between having shared timers or hurting Spirit/Soul to get Jump/High back, we'd rather keep things as they are.

    High Jump's enmity shed might be more of a consideration, if enmity itself wasn't in dire need of an overhaul right now.

    That's my two gil on the matter.

    -Ryx

    tl;dr: Don't hurt spirit/soul jump.
    (11)
    The truly mighty ones don't flaunt their power.
    How can I explain this to you... The sly eagle hides its claws.

  6. #26
    Player Motenten's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    321
    Character
    Motenten
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
    I'm pretty sure that splitting the Jump timers in the proposed way does much worse for DRG than good. Someone better at FFXI math can explain better than I can, but unless Jump or High Jump get buffed on a level comparable to Spirit/Soul Jump, your damage output is negatively affected by using Jump and High Jump because of JA delay.

    In other words, we still won't be using Jump/High Jump, but now our recasts for Spirit/Soul Jumps are increased. This is bad.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the impression I got.

    EDIT: Yeah, better explanations are given at the start of this thread.
    Doing a quick check, I don't think this is the case. Even in high haste situations, Jump should still be a net positive, though High Jump is mostly a wash. In low haste situations they should both be a net positive.

    Edit: This does not address whether the change in Spirit/Soul Jump timers would be a negative for drg, only whether the JA delay on Jump/High Jump themselves make them a net loss.
    (3)
    Last edited by Motenten; 11-14-2012 at 06:30 AM.

  7. #27
    Player Aramaic's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    29
    Character
    Aramaic
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Gonna have to say no to this proposed change. It will do more bad than good the way they want to adjust it for splitting timers.
    (5)

  8. #28
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    874
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    [list][*]New special ability
    • Effect duration: 45 seconds (no change)
    • Recast time for each jump: Increase time from 10 seconds to 15 seconds
    That part is fine and having 5 total jumps would make for a very fun and satisfying SP ability. BUT it shouldn't come at the cost of DRG being in a worse position when they are not in their new SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    [*]Recast time for each jump
    • Jump: 60 seconds (no change)
    • High Jump: 120 seconds (no change)
    • Spirit Jump: Increase from 60 seconds to 90 seconds
    • Soul Jump: Increase from 120 seconds to 180 seconds
    • Merit points used to reduce Jump/High Jump recast timers will be changed so the effect does not apply to Spirit Jump/Soul Jump
    DRG isn't more powerful compared to other DD jobs and has liabilities like Piercing damage and reliance on your Wyvern being alive to be effective. If DRG is to have more liabilities than other DDs then it isn't unreasonable for us to be asking for our output to be higher.

    Spirit and Soul Jump are valued much higher than Jump and High Jumps. I don't think it would be acceptable to split timers until you are willing to also give DRGs the ability to keep their cool downs for Spirit and Soul Jump lower by gear or by merits.

    The point of splitting the jumps is to make DRG better for this community. If the point of this adjustment is only to make the new SP more attractive but not help DRG in general, then it seems to be against what people are asking for.
    (6)
    Last edited by ManaKing; 11-14-2012 at 07:31 AM.
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  9. #29
    Player Valkrist's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    45
    Character
    Valkrist
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 4
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    [*]New special ability
    • Effect duration: 45 seconds (no change)
    • Recast time for each jump: Increase time from 10 seconds to 15 seconds
    [*]Recast time for each jump
    With current jump timers and TP gain, DRGs are currently able to WS with practically every jump. We're literally getting anywhere from 50 to 200+ TP per jump if you're geared properly. No one uses any of the jumps as a medium to deliver direct damage. They're used purely as tools so that we can WS more often. Jump and high jump both give minimal TP returns that can not justify the additional 30-60 second increase in spirit and soul jumps (40-80 seconds with merits).

    Unless jump and high jump's TP return is -radically changed- by either having significant TP modifiers, and to give equal TP return to double/triple/quad attack procs, or to have their damage significantly increased so that they do more than a normal swing. It's true that regular jump does more damage than the other jumps, but it's marginal even if you can afford to gear more VIT.


    As for Camate's quote... Huhwha~? Please re-explain this. A JA that lasts 45 seconds, that makes all jump recasts -increased- from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This can't possibly be talking about anything that currently exists, even on the test server. Did you mean that it -decreases- recasts 10 seconds, to 15 seconds? One way or another... This ability needs to be explained since I have never heard any mention of any JA that even changed recasts by 10 seconds. Also what would be the recast of this skill?

    If this JA decreases all jump recasts by 15 seconds, this would increase DPS -post- change. Overall this would not make up for net loss of spirit and soul jump TP return due to increased recasts.
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player Kysaiana's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    127
    Character
    Kysaiana
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    I'm for keeping jump timers together. Jump and Hi-jump are fairly useless and the increase in recast to soul/spirit jump with no ability to lower them with merits is simply a nerf.

    As far as the DRG-SP goes, it was originally (after the rework) going to be just jump with no recast for I think 30 seconds. Then it was changed to all jumps with 10 sec recasts for 45 seconds, and now all jumps with 15 second recast for 45 seconds. So I guess 12 jumps in 45 seconds assuming split timers and you can fire them off fast enough.
    (0)

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