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  1. #461
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    If my group can kill both clones with 90 second PD right now, I have to imagine that we could kill both clones with twice as many people (an alliance) in the future even with only 55 second PD/30 seconds of shock squall. Alliances really should be unaffected by this change and should have a 100% win rate either way. It's lowman groups that will suffer, and mostly because they'll finally have to skill up their summoner mules and maybe even *gasp* play summoner when they're up for Alex.

    I think you guys are overreacting.
    Doesn't work that way, you don't have 90s you have 45s with a tapering 45s. Now you will have 30s with a tapering 20~25s.

    You damage output doesn't matter and is something I've been trying to hammer into peoples heads. Alliances kill the same way low man groups do using the same strategy and same methods. The only difference is "LS groups" bring more pop sets, more SMN's and more COP mules to reset those SMN's 2hr. You damage done not double going from a low man group to an alliance, and honestly it doesn't change at all as any DD's in the "off party" won't have COR rolls / BRD songs and so forth.

    There is a time delay when it summons where you can be doing 99,999 per hit and it won't matter. After that everyone (except main assist) gets disengaged and has to spam their assist macro and wait to draw their weapon again. Those combined knocks a good chunk off of that 30s of protection.

    Win rates will plummet as the ability to kill the second clone goes down. It'll require a much tighter timing of PD and squall and hoping your SMN's don't get obliterated by a stray TP move.
    (3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  2. #462
    Player Llana_Virren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Okinawa, Japan!!
    Posts
    491
    Character
    Llana
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mefuki View Post
    So then we're in agreement. I was trying to point out that the adjustments that PD/Embrava are going to receive may not be as bad as some people here seem to be making them out to be. That the devs need to see the landscape of endgame without PD and Embrava reliance. People are upset about these adjustments despite the fact that we knew they were coming, that most of us wanted the adjustment and that for the health of the game was a needed one.

    My point wasn't that endgame without PD and Embrava is balanced. It isn't, as far as I know. My point was that these adjustments will make these abilities a useful tool or boon rather then a (perceived?) necessity. PD is still 56 seconds (currently) of "PD" effect, Embrava is still +25% magic haste and +72HP regen. I think that's still pretty useful.

    I agree events and monsters still need adjustments but they wouldn't have need of them to such a degree if they hadn't let things go like this for so long. These abilities began to be included in many player strategies, then SE started to adjust monsters around this very thing. Now look where we are. Abusing an overpowered SP will always be an essential element of strategy for the majority of players so long as that method exists.

    It's my hope that the devs will be able to see how much needs balancing in a post PD/Embrava game. Which is one of the many reasons I'm pleased with Matsui's leadership so far. It's rather clever of him to do a test, of sorts, in Neo-salvage to determine how post-Embrava adjustments will effect things.
    The problem with the issue surrounding the "fix" (or Nerf) on Embrava and PD is that the goal is not to "balance" SPs. The goal is not to provide players with alternative winning methods. The goal is to reduce the success rate on events. This has been clearly stated by the Dev Team. It is the official stance of the developers that the content we are winning was not designed to be won by any more than 5-10% of the playerbase.

    I cannot stress this enough: players need to stop assuming that the nerf on Embrava and PD is about balance. It is not. It is intended to artificially extend the life of the current end-game by hindering success.
    (6)


    Quote Originally Posted by Babekeke View Post
    If you can't out-claim someone who's AFK, you need to find a new game to play.

  3. #463
    Player Mefuki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    224
    Character
    Mefuki
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Is that the only reason that there could be? You don't see the devs having issues with trying to create new and interesting content we'd like to do in a PD/Embrava world? Don't you think they'd have a difficult time making the game revolve around it? If all SE really wanted us to do was stop winning, they certainly wouldn't be adjusting content in the update while NOT applying the PD/Embrava adjustments.
    (0)

  4. #464
    Player Raucent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    San'Doria
    Posts
    98
    Character
    Raucent
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    the idea of their "adjustment" ~10% less hp to compensate no Embrava /PD is hardly a fair balance when the intended targets still keep their board wiping abilities.
    (2)

  5. #465
    Player FrankReynolds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,592
    Character
    Mrkillface
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mefuki View Post
    Is that the only reason that there could be? You don't see the devs having issues with trying to create new and interesting content we'd like to do in a PD/Embrava world? Don't you think they'd have a difficult time making the game revolve around it? If all SE really wanted us to do was stop winning, they certainly wouldn't be adjusting content in the update while NOT applying the PD/Embrava adjustments.
    It's pretty much the reason's they stated. They are adjusting the older/current content because that's what they do after the l337 people have beat their heads against the wall for long enough. Not because it was too hard. This is their overall plan and it has never changed: Release stupid hard (read as mostly luck based nowadays) content ==> leave it hard until a large number of players have completed it despite the difficulty ==> lower the difficulty until even the Joe pinks have all finished it ==> release next ball breaker event with even more RNG Bullshit.
    (2)

  6. #466
    Player Rustic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    468
    Character
    Rustic
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    I'd think of it more along the other way of things.

    When what you have is hammers (Embrava/PD), everything gets treated the same way- like a nail.

    Maybe it's in part from being a ToAU/WoTG era player, but when you can roll through endgame content with a few specific jobs and their SPs, something is awry with the SP in question. Now, I can imagine that considering the relative candy-coated ride that we got in the previous expansion, now that someone who isn't just throwing things up in the air to concentrate on FFXIV is in charge (and hey, FFXI is still the success king for S-E), we're seeing the game being bent back towards more difficult big bad guy fights. Things are being tweaked now that a new expansion is on the horizion and that means whatever is seen as overpowering content gets turned down a notch.

    My only sadness is that we've gone all the way from 75-99 and we'll see L99 Geomancers and Rune Fencers in no time as they get powerleveled through the usual methods. Leveling as part of the methods to get people to experience content is dead at this point.
    (0)
    Old-time player, new-time character- Ragnarok server.

  7. #467
    Player FrankReynolds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,592
    Character
    Mrkillface
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustic View Post
    I'd think of it more along the other way of things.

    When what you have is hammers (Embrava/PD), everything gets treated the same way- like a nail.

    Maybe it's in part from being a ToAU/WoTG era player, but when you can roll through endgame content with a few specific jobs and their SPs, something is awry with the SP in question. Now, I can imagine that considering the relative candy-coated ride that we got in the previous expansion, now that someone who isn't just throwing things up in the air to concentrate on FFXIV is in charge (and hey, FFXI is still the success king for S-E), we're seeing the game being bent back towards more difficult big bad guy fights. Things are being tweaked now that a new expansion is on the horizion and that means whatever is seen as overpowering content gets turned down a notch.
    The problem is that when everything is in fact a nail and you take away the hammers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustic View Post
    My only sadness is that we've gone all the way from 75-99 and we'll see L99 Geomancers and Rune Fencers in no time as they get powerleveled through the usual methods. Leveling as part of the methods to get people to experience content is dead at this point.
    Hmm... that all depends. I had a ton of fun leveling Dancer in parties right when it was released. There were lot's of groups exping. I tanked and healed a lot and it was very action packed. When I leveled Scholar 6 months later, no one was looking for a crappy healer / who knows what a scholar was supposed to do in the mid levels. It was painfully slow and felt a lot like playing a gimpy red mage.

    So, I say maybe it's a good thing that people will be PLing their way to 99 on the new jobs. More time to experiment with the fully leveled capabilities.
    (0)

  8. #468
    Player Crimson_Slasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    356
    Character
    Grievor
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    I said it on a sch thread just a few minutes ago but self-quote go!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher View Post
    I been thinking about this and...well if they really want to "adjust" perfect defense and embrava, why not do what they have already done? Apply a tag to select content where they dont want it used. Look at neo-salvage, it has the adjustment state reflected there, why not apply that mentality to other events. The events able to be done so easily (Abyssea/dynamis/sky/sea) can be left as is, while content where theyre worried about it becoming the norm (Dyna bosses, NNI, NSalvage, N-odin, etc) can be tagged with the adjustment where they will have the weaker state. It lets say...abyssea exp parties, empyrean items(weapon/armor) and select nms in the TOAU COP and ROZ eras be smashed down fast and safely, and lets players have that really fun thing, meanwhile not requiring everything coming down the pipe to have 17 DD and a sch thrown at it.
    I see this as some sorta compromise personally. Might make some of those magian trials more fun to keep old embrava too. Course if it isnt 1 thing, its another, bring in the bards! I jest. But i share the sentiments of having these mobs needing adjusting or the events needing adjusting. Running NNI just yesterday the floor 40 boss took 5 minutes of embrava-fueled 4 DD pummeling to kill. A drop in some of these mobs damage resistence, and apply some hp reduction closer to 25%-40%. I personally look at difficulty in ffxi as one of two ways, mass HP but relitively harmless (the wall with 1,000,000+HP) that stresses the event clock, or the paper tiger (80,000HP, hitting 500DMG+ a strike). Instead with the new caps we are looking at Walltigers, that also call in their cubs (200,000P+ 400DMG+ a strike).

    This not only stresses the clock, and forces people to struggle very hard, sometimes pulling out acts of desperation, but each death also lowers event completion speed, thus stressing the clock more! (Like having 1 DD sitting at the back, unable to even fight.)

    This has also made me think about that "Fostering aspects of skillful play" thread. To me this seems like certain events should reward use of good behavior and mechanics. For example, stunning a dangerous move in Neo-nyzul or salvage resulting in a 30 second bonus, skillchains performed between two different players resulting in a 1 minute time extention bonus, and magicbursts giving 2 minutes! Imagine that, get your sch to throw a fire after your war and sam skillchain, and you can pack on 3 minutes! This might encourage people to start letting the mages throw ws for example again! Aaand with this my thoughts have run wild... Still, i think theyre fun ideas and are something that rewards that teamwork they want to encourage, yet doesnt directly punish the lone wolves either.
    (2)

  9. 01-24-2013 06:30 PM

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