TH Procing

[Riggs]

every since the 99 level increase thf have got screwed by se. Just as a start all daggers level 90+ should get an increase of +10 to base damage to help get the damage level back to level 75 era and thats just for a start.

As for thf6 , 7 or 8 all i know that in dynamis my bst friend with thf3 gets as many drops as i do with thf8 and he kills in a fraction of the time

[Arcon]

Everyone on the forums that is against it is vocal. The people who are for it, generally only say it once or twice and then move on because it's no longer an issue to them.

Name one person (other than yourself) who was for it.

Plenty of people are going to be happy to get rid of PD/Embrava since it's already old, boring, and is the blanket strategy for anything that people don't want to take the time to figure out themselves.

Entirely not the point and completely unfounded assumption. Everyone knows Embrava and PD were overpowered. But SE's solution to it was bad, so it made people unhappy. They nerfed them without adjusting the content, which upset everyone because it will make it nearly impossible to clear in a reliable form. There is currently no indication at all that "people are going to be happy" about this. Case in point, solutions can go wrong as well. SE needs to time thinking about what they do before doing it. Just doing something without regard for what's good and what isn't will help no one in the end.

Although all of this seems to be more and more off-topic, as I still don't consider this a problem worth solving.

[Fynlar]

Everyone knows Embrava and PD were overpowered. But SE's solution to it was bad, so it made people unhappy. They nerfed them without adjusting the content, which upset everyone because it will make it nearly impossible to clear in a reliable form.

But they are lowering the HP of Legion mobs by 10%, omg! That'll totally fix things!

[ManaKing]

Entirely not the point and completely unfounded assumption. Everyone knows Embrava and PD were overpowered. But SE's solution to it was bad, so it made people unhappy. They nerfed them without adjusting the content, which upset everyone because it will make it nearly impossible to clear in a reliable form. There is currently no indication at all that "people are going to be happy" about this. Case in point, solutions can go wrong as well. SE needs to time thinking about what they do before doing it. Just doing something without regard for what's good and what isn't will help no one in the end.

Although all of this seems to be more and more off-topic, as I still don't consider this a problem worth solving.

I'm more than willing to give a new dev team the ability to try to actually do their job first before telling them that they don't know what they are doing. FFXI isn't dead and the management has changed. If they want to address the issues of a boring end game, then let them. I'd much rather they try something that they think will work than do nothing and let all of the glaring issues continue to be un-addressed because they are a lot of work to fix.

Either way, I see what the current team is trying to do as giving us more options and new ways to play. They are offering diversity and I have no interest in spitting in their face for trying to give us more instead of less.

Name one person (other than yourself) who was for it.

I'm not going to waste my time linking people's responses so you can continue to try to refute completely off topic points. People made posts that were for what they are doing. If you've read most of the topics on Embrava/PD, then you just weren't paying attention or you decided that people who had those opinions weren't worth remembering.

If you want to talk about THFs current state with TH and the hang ups that exist which makes THF an undesirable job to be played by some, then we can continue. Otherwise, I continue to support NON-2H DPS jobs that actually wanted more role diversity so that people could have interesting experiences while playing video games with other people. People should be rewarded for bringing something other than a Ragnarok DRK or WAR.

A THF being more than a TH whore to a system of TH that doesn't truthfully reward them is complete bull shit. It makes people who want to actually play THF angry and unfulfilled. You will always be able to find someone willing to play a THF to proc TH, since that is all they need to do, but that person will go back to playing something fun or rewarding after they are done doing their inconveniencing work as a THF.

[Gwydion]

Happy Friday everyone!

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I wanted to share some information about Treasure Hunter.

This post might get a bit complicated since it is about Treasure Hunter, but that is the nature of the beast, as they say.

To shed some light of the background before I drop some knowledge bombs, there was a test performed by your fellow adventurers in Japan, and they noticed that after initially hitting the monster with maximum TH+ gear equipped and then switching to non-TH gear, the rate in which the TH value increased was reduced.

Now that you have the background…

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

There have been requests to make it so that it's possible to switch out TH+ gear after the TH effect is placed on a monster, but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.

There is a debate on FFXIAH right now, about TH proc'ing and this post is being referenced a few times. We are arguing about how to properly play the Thief job so that we can employ increases to the rate at which TH is proc'ing. Some questions:

1.) Does critical hit rate probably an increased opportunity for TH procs, when compared to normal auto-attacks?
2.) For each TH proc that occurs, will increasing the amount of TH in gear by 1 improve the chance of the next TH-proc to occur?
3.) Expanding on question #2: If I increase my TH in gear by 1 for every TH proc, I am maintaining the "gap" you describe above, so let's say: If I wear TH+5 and proc TH9, then I increase my gear to TH6: Can you tell us what improvement to the probability of TH10 proc occurs here? If the answer is none, we can stay in TH5 gear throughout the fight. If the answer is a very small probability increase, such as from 1% to 1.1% chance of that TH10 proc occurring, I think we deserve to know so we can play and swap gear accordingly.

Please note:
Your answers to these 3 questions will tell us: (1) Should THFs wear critical hit gear to increase TH procs? (2) Should we increase our TH+ amount in gear for every subsequent TH proc that occurs? (As you can see, this clearly effects playstyle and how we will swap gear when aiming for certain items).

Please help us play Thief effectively so we can bring the most to our parties and group content! Your help is greatly appreciated! Thank you.

[Alhanelem]

1) is very testable, it doesn't need a response. Casually though, I don't see any evidence that this happens or see any reason why it would.
2) No. We already know what TH+ does. This is also testable but I don't see that it's necessary, I've never heard anyone say this before and it's most likely either just anecdotal eyeballing or a complete fabrication

Again, you can test all of this, but no claim has ever been made that TH+ on gear modifies the chances of anything happening; it only modifies the TH level on the target, and unless/until someone proves otherwise (like i said, the chance of anything is completely testable) it should be assumed that no change in chances for anything (other than the drop rate chance provided by TH application) occurs.

We also haven't gotten any internal responses to anything in a very, long time, so I wouldn't hold your breath. Sorry to be a debbie downer. But, like I said, you can very much test this yourself, just keep track of how many TH effects you apply and whether they were applied alongside a critical. You just need a large enough sample size.

If it helps, based on this earlier official comment on TH:

Camate Wrote: Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.

I would lean towards there being nothing modifying the rate at which you can apply TH procs.

[Gwydion]

1) is very testable, it doesn't need a response. Casually though, I don't see any evidence that this happens or see any reason why it would.
2) No. We already know what TH+ does. This is also testable but I don't see that it's necessary, I've never heard anyone say this before and it's most likely either just anecdotal eyeballing or a complete fabrication

Again, you can test all of this, but no claim has ever been made that TH+ on gear modifies the chances of anything happening; it only modifies the TH level on the target, and unless/until someone proves otherwise (like i said, the chance of anything is completely testable) it should be assumed that no change in chances for anything (other than the drop rate chance provided by TH application) occurs.

We also haven't gotten any internal responses to anything in a very, long time, so I wouldn't hold your breath. Sorry to be a debbie downer. But, like I said, you can very much test this yourself, just keep track of how many TH effects you apply and whether they were applied alongside a critical. You just need a large enough sample size.

If it helps, based on this earlier official comment on TH:

I would lean towards there being nothing modifying the rate at which you can apply TH procs.

I don't think you're considering the scope of my questions or at least how TH proc modifiers can possibly fluctuate.

1.) This application of critical hit rate as a modifier for TH proc rate does not have to be constant and could vary from each subsequent TH level that is proc'ed. For example, SE could come back and tell us that Critical hit Rate has 10% higher chance of causing a TH proc from 8 to 9, a 9% higher chance to cause a TH proc from 9 to 10 ....and so on, and so forth. This is why it makes it very difficult to test. (We would have a set of samples for multiple independent TH procs).

2.) For the same reason as #1, AND the description using a metric that is controllable by the player: "gap in TH level between player and monster" ...means that further elaboration from SE is necessary. If I proc TH, am I supposed to increase my gear by TH+1 further?

Our testing would not yield the correct value if the likelihood of a TH proc varies for either of the situations described above. (Keep in mind, it is very easy for to create these non-linear modifiers in code, just a few lines or a single lookup table).

Once again, I'm hoping SE gives us some guidance on the proper way to play THF when aiming for TH procs as quickly as possible, by answering the questions above.

[Alhanelem]

1.) This application of critical hit rate as a modifier for TH proc rate does not have to be constant and could vary from each subsequent TH level that is proc'ed. For example, SE could come back and tell us that Critical hit Rate has 10% higher chance of causing a TH proc from 8 to 9, a 9% higher chance to cause a TH proc from 9 to 10 ....and so on, and so forth. This is why it makes it very difficult to test. (We would have a set of samples for multiple independent TH procs).

You are really overthinking this. There's no reason to do something like this, other than just having complexity for the sake of complexity. And while SE did have a tendency to make complex mechanics in this game, they always had a purpose. Throwing secret secondary modifiers like you're suggesting in there would serve no purpose other than to make it harder for players to discover them- and if they deliberately did this, I don't think they would tell you how it works for obvious reasons.


This game's playerbase has a bad habit of assuming things are more complex than they really are, just because there are some things in the game that are needlessly complex. It's true that some things are, but that doesn't mean everything is. I think in this case it's just because TH was shrouded in secrecy for a very, very long time.

SE generally does NOT give guidance on how to play the game beyond the basics. It has always been up to the players to figure these things out. They only tend to come out of the wood work when complaints about something reach epic porportions at which point they sometimes discuss what is causing players "consternation" (a word most of us probably never heard or used before they did, lol).

And while I think you'll be wasting your time and disappointed with the results, as I said, everything you're asking about can easily be tested, so given that it can be figured out by the playerbase (unlike the inner workings of Treasure Hunter and the drop system itself), they are more than likely just going to leave you to figure it out. Which, if it really concerns you that much, I'd strongly advise you to do.

Our testing would not yield the correct value if the likelihood of a TH proc varies for either of the situations described above. (Keep in mind, it is very easy for to create these non-linear modifiers in code, just a few lines or a single lookup table).

Testing would easily enable you to determine if such obtuse mechanics exist, because, straight as you said, you would get unexpected results. Which is all the more reason you should test for this, instead of just giving excuses not to do so. You are, once again, assuming secret complexity without any real basis.

I'm not writing this post to be a jerk or to shut you down or anything like that. I'm just trying to get you to realize it isn't really hard to evaluate this yourself, and that I think you're falling down a complexity rabbit hole, assuming that it must be complex when it may very well not be. That aside from the fact that there really isn't anything in the game to suggest to us that the rate at which procs occur can be modified by anything- any variance is almost certainly just player eyeballing introducing inaccuracy.

And finally... they're not going to respond to this. It isn't a dire issue impacting the entire playerbase like the Sortie boss issue, which is, to my recollection, the last gameplay element they've interacted with us on outside of update notes/freshly picked. Keep wishing if you'd like, but I'd keep your expectations very low if I were you, and use the time to test it.

[Gwydion]

I'm not going to read all that. You opinion was clear, unhelpful and unnecessary in your first post. Everything after that is a waste.

Let's hope SE sheds light on this issue so we can play THF correctly for increased TH proc rates.

[Sp1cyryan]

I'm not going to read all that. You opinion was clear, unhelpful and unnecessary in your first post. Everything after that is a waste.

Let's hope SE sheds light on this issue so we can play THF correctly for increased TH proc rates.

I'm not going to read all that. You opinion was clear, unhelpful and unnecessary in your first post. Everything after that is a waste.