Dual-wield for cor

[Afania]

The only situations (that I can think of at least) where you'd be pushing out a lot more TP meleeing than shooting/qd/regaining to offset the lower WS damage would be situations where a COR isn't really needed.

Actually, no, getting DW while giving up fencer bonus actually make your last stand stronger when you /WAR.

Assuming 200 AGI, 137 STR on COR/WAR with nguul, target VIT 110ish and 16 fSTR2, pDIF at 3.

(165+16+170)x4.5125=1583
1583x3=4749


Without fencer bonus, but with DW, you can offhand another STR sword such as prov sword or Sagasinger, pushes your fSTR2 to 20~23.

With Sagasinger but no fencer bonus:
(165+23+170)x4.4625=1597
1597x3=4790

(165+20+170)x4.4625=1584
1584x3=4752

Even with prov sword, DW still superior to fencer bonus, with Sagasinger the gap gets bigger. And that's just counting WS dmg, no extra TP dmg. Even if you can't melee the target at all, DW still has higher number.

As for the usefulness of meleeing, I think it's viable in VW with fana and march, especially lower tier when 1h weapon dmg isn't that bad.

For lowman content such as limbus/dyna/nyzul, I wouldn't mind more output in those event too. Of course you can argue that COR isn't "needed" in those, but so does any none-mage job. Technically those content can be done with any combination of DD jobs+mage. So it's a nice extra advantage to increase output if someone want to play COR in those content.

[Zagen]

Actually, no, getting DW while giving up fencer bonus actually make your last stand stronger when you /WAR.

Assuming 200 AGI, 137 STR on COR/WAR with nguul, target VIT 110ish and 16 fSTR2, pDIF at 3.

(165+16+170)x4.5125=1583
1583x3=4749


Without fencer bonus, but with DW, you can offhand another STR sword such as prov sword or Sagasinger, pushes your fSTR2 to 20~23.

With Sagasinger but no fencer bonus:
(165+23+170)x4.4625=1597
1597x3=4790

(165+20+170)x4.4625=1584
1584x3=4752

Even with prov sword, DW still superior to fencer bonus, with Sagasinger the gap gets bigger. And that's just counting WS dmg, no extra TP dmg. Even if you can't melee the target at all, DW still has higher number.

Aluh is a more real offhand option which happens to fit the 20 equation. So I stand corrected you do 3 more damage.

As for the usefulness of meleeing, I think it's viable in VW with fana and march, especially lower tier when 1h weapon dmg isn't that bad.

Unless you're eating sushi I would go out and say not really viable in VW beyond Jeuno. As to cities considering when I do those all DD are holding back waiting for one person to call out procs because they die that fast, why would the COR be up there knocking off HP? Maybe for low man situations but otherwise I just don't see it.

For lowman content such as limbus/dyna/nyzul, I wouldn't mind more output in those event too. Of course you can argue that COR isn't "needed" in those, but so does any none-mage job. Technically those content can be done with any combination of DD jobs+mage. So it's a nice extra advantage to increase output if someone want to play COR in those content.

Like you said "needed" and "nice" aren't really the same.
Neo-Limbus? Maybe to build pops it's viable, not sure tbh.
Dynamis? I sure hope you're EXPing at which point who gives a crap, if you're there for currency why aren't you /DNC for procs?
NNI? Even with the proposed changes so far it doesn't look appealing for COR.

[Afania]

Aluh is a more real offhand option which happens to fit the 20 equation. So I stand corrected you do 3 more damage.


Unless you're eating sushi I would go out and say not really viable in VW beyond Jeuno.

You get hunters roll, aggressor and temp, and you can adjust your TP set for more accuracy, I don't think sushi is needed to hit stuff with a dagger, although I've never try on something like watcher. But long time ago I had about 86% on unbuffed BLU(which happened to be 1h job too) on watcher. That's with just pizza, and no SV acc song+hunters. COR with those should be 80% no matter what.

[Zagen]

You get hunters roll, aggressor and temp, and you can adjust your TP set for more accuracy, I don't think sushi is needed to hit stuff with a dagger, although I've never try on something like watcher. But long time ago I had about 86% on unbuffed BLU(which happened to be 1h job too) on watcher. That's with just pizza, and no SV acc song+hunters. COR with those should be 80% no matter what.

I can see Hunter's helping on certain VW but not something across the board at which point you have to run off to roll it so you aren't overwriting rolls on other DDs. At that point you're banking on the fights lasting <5-6 minutes, they shouldn't last that long but sometimes they do and at which point you're running away to reapply hunter's roll which would hurt the melee concept.

As to the anecdotal story, 12.6 more accuracy on BLU without even counting any other stat compared to COR with daggers add another 5~ more if Almace is 85. 4.5 more from Suppa. 10 more if you're setting Accuracy Bonus because you don't make your BLU completely useless, obviously depends on play style of your group but you start to get the point.

If COR got something like Pianissimo the idea of it being a viable melee option due to Hunter's Roll would become more plausible in my mind. Though at that point I wouldn't be surprised if SE thought COR is too powerful to get DW without a nerf.

[Babekeke]

I can help you out on a copuple of things:

Neo-Limbus? Maybe to build pops it's viable, not sure tbh.

Unless you're really short on time to do limbus, and therefore need to finish each zone really fast, you're better off to have the cor swap to thf and go solo a zone for extra coins to buy the chips. Personally I like temenos west on thf, and can get ~75 clearing every mob.

Dynamis? I sure hope you're EXPing at which point who gives a crap, if you're there for currency why aren't you /DNC for procs?

Uh, if you're exping, you want to kill every mob ASAP, so surely everyone gives a crap?

[Zagen]

Unless you're really short on time to do limbus, and therefore need to finish each zone really fast, you're better off to have the cor swap to thf and go solo a zone for extra coins to buy the chips. Personally I like temenos west on thf, and can get ~75 clearing every mob.

The comment was based on the assumption the COR was coming to Neo-Limbus already not how the player would preform most efficiently.

Uh, if you're exping, you want to kill every mob ASAP, so surely everyone gives a crap?

If you can't hit 20k exp in 1 run with a group without a COR there's something wrong.

So I'll elaborate: Who gives a crap, you should be hitting 20k EXP way before the 2hour limit in a group so really a COR meleeing or not meleeing is of no consequence when your main goal is EXP.

[Afania]

I can see Hunter's helping on certain VW but not something across the board at which point you have to run off to roll it so you aren't overwriting rolls on other DDs. At that point you're banking on the fights lasting <5-6 minutes, they shouldn't last that long but sometimes they do and at which point you're running away to reapply hunter's roll which would hurt the melee concept.

As to the anecdotal story, 12.6 more accuracy on BLU without even counting any other stat compared to COR with daggers add another 5~ more if Almace is 85. 4.5 more from Suppa. 10 more if you're setting Accuracy Bonus because you don't make your BLU completely useless, obviously depends on play style of your group but you start to get the point.

If COR got something like Pianissimo the idea of it being a viable melee option due to Hunter's Roll would become more plausible in my mind. Though at that point I wouldn't be surprised if SE thought COR is too powerful to get DW without a nerf.

I just did a Prov Watcher run on COR, Tried COR/WAR meleeing for TP with Aluh for 1st time, and no sushi nor any acc food. Due to being 1st time, I forgot to pop aggressor, and TP set was crap(missing new acc DA TP piece.) and bad macro position made plenty of melee swings in WS set. But I parsed about 73% without aggressor, with aggressor it should be 85%, with new acc back piece and some more acc gear, it should hit 90%+ np. Note that each swing can crit to 140~160 a swing, without crit about 40~80. But the point is to gain TP faster than /ra. I'm very certain that you don't need a sushi to hit those if done properly.

But I believe that for this particular BC, melee for TP is probably superior option than /ra for TP(with embrava and BRD songs) I parsed slightly higher than using staff and spamming WF on none-firesday, just because buffed last stand dmg is pretty high(easily 3k+, and I've done 4.1k once) on Prov watcher and I get to WS faster with a melee weapon. If you can some how not hit a 0 with Mkirs, I only see the output be even higher as long as TP move isn't zomg a big problem.

As for "you need to run away from other DD to roll yourself" arguement, I always roll myself after melee done, since the roll that benefit me usually is different from melee anyways, so doing hunter doesn't hurt. Even if I /ra, I still use different set of rolls.

[Zagen]

I just did a Prov Watcher run on COR, Tried COR/WAR meleeing for TP with Aluh for 1st time, and no sushi nor any acc food. Due to being 1st time, I forgot to pop aggressor, and TP set was crap(missing new acc DA TP piece.) and bad macro position made plenty of melee swings in WS set. But I parsed about 73% without aggressor, with aggressor it should be 85%, with new acc back piece and some more acc gear, it should hit 90%+ np. Note that each swing can crit to 140~160 a swing, without crit about 40~80. But the point is to gain TP faster than /ra. I'm very certain that you don't need a sushi to hit those if done properly.

But I believe that for this particular BC, melee for TP is probably superior option than /ra for TP(with embrava and BRD songs) I parsed slightly higher than using staff and spamming WF on none-firesday, just because buffed last stand dmg is pretty high(easily 3k+, and I've done 4.1k once) on Prov watcher and I get to WS faster with a melee weapon. If you can some how not hit a 0 with Mkirs, I only see the output be even higher as long as TP move isn't zomg a big problem.

As for "you need to run away from other DD to roll yourself" argument, I always roll myself after melee done, since the roll that benefit me usually is different from melee anyways, so doing hunter doesn't hurt. Even if I /ra, I still use different set of rolls.

Heh your numbers sound like I've over estimated Prov which is nice to hear. Madrigals or no?

As to the comment of running away it would, as you'd be out of melee range thus greatly reducing the tp gain, which is what I intended to be implied by it. However your numbers definitely sound like with aggressor + gear acc should be capped if not could do sushi and change around gear a bit.

[Afania]

Heh your numbers sound like I've over estimated Prov which is nice to hear. Madrigals or no?

Yes used SV Madrigalx1 Min x3(BRD x2) like aways, but this fight already been using SV Madrigal for ages, it's not like we suddenly changed BRD buff just so that COR can DD. I also used hunters on myself. I'd imagine after embrava nerf this probably need empy BRD to work well though, not enough song slot with march ;<

As to the comment of running away it would, as you'd be out of melee range thus greatly reducing the tp gain, which is what I intended to be implied by it. However your numbers definitely sound like with aggressor + gear acc should be capped if not could do sushi and change around gear a bit.

In VW or Prov in general, I usually do 2 melee buff before we pop/enter BC, then buffx2 myself(regain Mattk if spamming WF) while everyone else popping temps. The fight usually end before roll wears unless mega-death(which shouldn't happen) And if mega death would be hard to rebuff melee to begin with, even if you don't buff yourself.

After fight end, I redo 2x melee again and do my own roll again in that little down time, so duration is fresh and new again. A good pt usually end each BC in less than 5 min, so it's not a problem to have roll stay up whole time without the need to run away and buff myself a whole lot. I try to avoid rebuff mid-fight as much as possible(although I still do them if it really wears before fight ends), it just hurts my DPS without much benefit to rebuff mid-fight, also pretty dangerous to do so especially if Fana is down. I also always use 3~4 rolls, Chaos/DA on melee, 1~2different ones on myself depending on which WS I use. Mattk for WF, regain if I'm /ra, leave chaos on if I'm doing last stand and so on. I also have 45 sec Phantom roll recast, so it doesn't take aweful lot long time to do my own buff when DDs still popping temps.

I do rebuff if the fight last very long and roll wear mid-fight, but I rarely need to. At very best I need to rebuff once(if I need to rebuff twice then that pt is beyond terrible in terms of killing speed) I also always ask DD to lock buffs if pt spending longer to do other stuff so rolls isn't wasted.

In the case of Prov watcher, rebuff 2x melee rolls, leave Chaos on, run in and do hunters on myself, by the time melee roll gone watcher already dead since it's a 1.5 min~3 min zerg.

[Babekeke]

The comment was based on the assumption the COR was coming to Neo-Limbus already not how the player would preform most efficiently.

You said to farm pop sets. They then have 3 days to swap jobs back to COR, that should be enough.

If you can't hit 20k exp in 1 run with a group without a COR there's something wrong.

So I'll elaborate: Who gives a crap, you should be hitting 20k EXP way before the 2hour limit in a group so really a COR meleeing or not meleeing is of no consequence when your main goal is EXP.

If I was in a group doing dyna for exp with a cor and he just stood there with his thumb up his arse between rolls, I'd boot him. Get your sword/dagger out and join in, since most cors complain about how much it costs for cards/bullets.