Why do so many people complain about Voidwatch being a bad idea?

[SNK]

I LOVE THAT I'M 0/400+ ON TOCI'S!!! GREAT EVENT GUYS!!!!

[Demon6324236]

See, only real complaints about VW are about the drops, everything else is fine.

[Zubis]

This happened a few hours ago to me and I felt it was quite relevant:



Look at my jobs - if I could give it away I would, I know at least one person that wants it badly.
It's from Botulus Rex - not even remotely as farmable as say, Qilin.

[Afania]

Just because it's how everyone does it doesn't make it right. It's way past time MMOs evolved beyond the Everquest model.

The reason we can't have nice things is because people like you are apparently OK with this. It doesn't have to be this way. MMO devs are just generally lazy and unimaginative. They don't know how to make an event fun first and a loot distribution method second.

If that's the case then the content isn't entertaining in its own right.


An MMO is supposed to be fun before everything else. Gear is a means to an end.

Even majority of MMO past everquest, you still don't get items everytime you do the content.

Look at wow(the most successful MMO) and 1000000 other WoW clone MMO out there, you're not going to tell me it's not "grind gear MMO" no?

How about Diablo3? Again, "grind your gear". Unless it's MMO with another theme such as PVP focused MMO, or F2P MMO where you buy items with real money, in the end it's extremely hard to jump off the boat of "Do this, get item, if you didn't get it do again" loop, because it's a forumla used for ages, and successful for ages.

Can you please tell me are there any PvE based MMO past EQ, that you only need to do raid/dungeon/boss ONCE and you can get the item you want, and still successful?

I highly doubt it, because if you only need to do it ONCE and you get the item, and you keep doing new content when you only do old content ONCE, then how many boss/raid/dungeon it needs to release every month? No company will have the resource to add content this fast.
Once you completed all the content, you quit the game.

As for being "fun" or not, this is a really subjective matter.

Personally I had fun with VW, it's easy, you see big dmg numbers, you spam WS over and over again. However, after you do it for multiple times, it got boring for majority of ppl.

And this applies to every content every game.

No matter how they design it, and no matter how "fun" it is when you do it for first time, after you do it for 1st time and cleared, it's no longer "fun" when you do it again. Even if they handed item after your first clear, it's still no longer "fun" on 2nd run because there are no point going it back.

It's just the way it goes.

I also have to point out that getting items 100% is sometimes, less "fun" than not having 100% drop rate, due to lack of surprise when you see it.

If you're going to complained that content is not "fun", and complained that dev is not creative enough, then I challenge you to come up with a MMO(none PvP focused) system, that 1. Can keep players play for years, without having to add new dungeons every week(no company has that kind of resources) 2. Players always have fun, never feel repetitive 3. They never do a content and get nothing. And you can't be too unrealistic with the solution(that means you can't use the resource of 200 ppl team, you have to keep the resource used minium)

Majority of MMO do it this way, is because it's proved a winning forumla for them to sell the product. WoW, Diablo, PSO etc. If there are other MMO try other way, it's a risky gamble because it's not a winning formula.

And no, Abyssea is never the solution, players cap gear in 1 month with little skill/pt organization, and players no longer have "fun" in Abyssea when they cap gear in 1 month(majority of players don't go back to abyssea after they get what they want too, proved that Abyssea is not "fun" to begin with and people only do it for gears too). Personally I had no fun in abyssea, and never understand what's so "fun" about not having anything to work on/don't want any items when you log on to the game. Game is really only interesting, when there are goals you haven't accomplish no? You log on with your mule, play for 1 month, killing easy mob by cure5 bombing DD with your WHM mule(instead of other real players), you got every item, sit in Jeuno and not knowing what to do, you honestly think that's really "fun"? You can blame other player that hates abyssea all you want, but you can't change the fact that Abyssea is overratted.

I'm totally ok with anything that doesn't make every player sit in PJ with capped/identical gear playing with their WHM mule.

As I stated before, if you're not happy with do content and get nothing, go play single player RPG or something, when you only need to do everything ONCE and beat the game. But MMO(at least majority of mainstream MMO) is meant for you to keep playing, not do everything ONCE and quit.

[Caketime]

WoW content is set up like Abyssea, you have a particular amount of stuff to collect for your gear and each time you do the daily quests you get a set amount of runes toward your next upgrade. It's actually pretty fun, I used to play Paladin until they gutted it and turned it into RNG derp class.

Personally I find VW to be rather boring, I wish it were more interactive instead of just a boss fight for logs. I really like Einherjar and would like to see another battleground sort of event where we fight groups of monsters instead of just one boss, it's so boring being a healer at these events when everyone is using damage immunity temps and zerging. The limit points are nice, but the fanny/fool combo makes it a snoozefest.

[Afania]

Personally I find VW to be rather boring, I wish it were more interactive instead of just a boss fight for logs. I really like Einherjar and would like to see another battleground sort of event where we fight groups of monsters instead of just one boss, it's so boring being a healer at these events when everyone is using damage immunity temps and zerging. The limit points are nice, but the fanny/fool combo makes it a snoozefest.

I guess that probably depend on your job and so on. I don't deny Einherjar is probably my fav event in XI(although the reward/effort ratio is even worse than VW for me, I do Ein for years and don't really get anything truely worth noting), but there are something I do enjoy about VW, it's not as intensive, pt has little chance to wipe, and it doesn't require a set schedule so anyone can log on anytime and start /shout or join /shout. It doesn't require 100% focus level, and not being fully focused won't really wipe the ally and make everyone unhappy. Although I appreciate harder events that require more pt organization and focus level, sometimes having event like VW to do isn't half bad when I'm not in the mood to be that focused and just want to relax.

Note that despite majority of time ppl won't get what they really do VW for, it's still semi-nice income if you sell plate/cinder/dross/cruor after VW, sometimes a couple hundred K or even million+. I know that ppl who do VW not for gil probably won't give a shit and would rather want Toci, but it isn't really completely 0 reward whenever Toci doesn't drop. I mean, ppl spam Qilin/T3 all day long for a reason. I still often join Pil /shout even though I don't need anything from it, just for some easy quick cash.

Although Abyssea is also like this, but there are several key differences between Abby and VW that made me dislike Abby more. Abby era totally closed off the interaction between every player. During Abyssea era, everyone and their mother duo or trio with their close friend or mule, so entire social connection is seperated. It's fairly annoying to log on, just to see everyone is in Abyssea 24/7 with their mule/close friend doing their own stuff. You don't really need others, you just need yourself, or your roommate/wife/gf. So there are little social aspect IMO. While in VW, I ended up having to interact/pt with many other players from other LS. Having to cooperate with players from other LS that I don't know, is a new aspect that doesn't exist in HNMLS era(when you only play with your LS), nor Abyssea era(when you only play with Mule/close friend). My connection actually expanded during VW era, which never happen during Abby/HNMLS era.

Another reason is purely personal and probably won't apply to everyone. I'm COR main, and often try to push the DD aspect of this job. VW is probably the only event I ever do that made me feel DDing on this job is quite satisfying. In abyssea this job is nearly useless, every other event it's output is nowhere near a real DD, VW is the only event(barring 75 pink bird merit pt) ever exist that is nearly on the same level as real DD in terms of output, thanks to wing spam and free TP. It's a high WS dmg low TP phrase dmg job, so all the free TP makes it kinda catch up to real DDs, and that just really fun. After all the high VW parse, and go back to legion where I parse much lower, it's like a huge slap in the face ;<

Just like previous post stated, there's nothing wrong with VW in general, and there's nothing wrong with having a brainless easy event, you still get event like Legion if you want event with 100% focus level. The only problem is how drops are dealt with, or the fact that whoever can't use the item will get them first. After pulse cell introduced, the problem is less unbearable though. Ppl have the item can make some quick cash, and ppl with 0/700 or really want the item can just pay for it. SE should really introduce cell for every VW ex/rare IMO. Make every ex/rare sellable or have cells, and there will be a lot less VW complain.

[Mefuki]

And no, Abyssea is never the solution, players cap gear in 1 month with little skill/pt organization, and players no longer have "fun" in Abyssea when they cap gear in 1 month(majority of players don't go back to abyssea after they get what they want too, proved that Abyssea is not "fun" to begin with and people only do it for gears too). Personally I had no fun in abyssea, and never understand what's so "fun" about not having anything to work on/don't want any items when you log on to the game. Game is really only interesting, when there are goals you haven't accomplish no? You log on with your mule, play for 1 month, killing easy mob by cure5 bombing DD with your WHM mule(instead of other real players), you got every item, sit in Jeuno and not knowing what to do, you honestly think that's really "fun"? You can blame other player that hates abyssea all you want, but you can't change the fact that Abyssea is overratted.

It wasn't just Abyssea. It was also Trial of The Magians. These two systems allowed for the player to log in and make some progress in their gear acquisition. I remember when I made my Almace how tedious it felt to finish BUT I could at least say to myself I was one step closer to my goal. I'd much rather have that then constantly putting in the time and effort and having nothing to show for it.

Wouldn't it be better for the game to recognize my effort by recording my progress? What if the events that use the RNG for gear drops also had a tracker that said, "Hey, you've finished this event/fought this NM literally hundreds of times...Do you maybe want this piece of gear it drops?"

[Camiie]

Even majority of MMO past everquest, you still don't get items everytime you do the content.

"Everyone does it" is not a justification.

Look at wow(the most successful MMO) and 1000000 other WoW clone MMO out there, you're not going to tell me it's not "grind gear MMO" no?

It is, but every time you do a max level dungeon you at least get points to spend on relevant gear. I know you get cruor and vendor trash from VW, and you can make gil from that, but that's a rather roundabout method of gear acquisition.

How about Diablo3? Again, "grind your gear". Unless it's MMO with another theme such as PVP focused MMO, or F2P MMO where you buy items with real money, in the end it's extremely hard to jump off the boat of "Do this, get item, if you didn't get it do again" loop, because it's a forumla used for ages, and successful for ages.

So you agree that it's not a very innovative formula.

Can you please tell me are there any PvE based MMO past EQ, that you only need to do raid/dungeon/boss ONCE and you can get the item you want, and still successful?

I never said SE weren't the only idiot developers out there. They're just one of the worst offenders. The drop rates are extraordinarily low and there's no real secondary reward system to help ease the pain. With WoW you do usually have to kill a boss multiple times, but not hundreds upon hundreds.

I highly doubt it, because if you only need to do it ONCE and you get the item, and you keep doing new content when you only do old content ONCE, then how many boss/raid/dungeon it needs to release every month? No company will have the resource to add content this fast.

The real limiting factor is development time. It's not that the larger companies don't have the resources, they just choose to allocate them to different things.

Once you completed all the content, you quit the game.

People also quit because the stuff they want never seems to drop for them.

As for being "fun" or not, this is a really subjective matter.

They're not even trying. All they do is hang up a loot pinata with no loot in it.

Personally I had fun with VW, it's easy, you see big dmg numbers, you spam WS over and over again. However, after you do it for multiple times, it got boring for majority of ppl.

Because it's not sufficiently rewarding or engaging.

And this applies to every content every game.

No matter how they design it, and no matter how "fun" it is when you do it for first time, after you do it for 1st time and cleared, it's no longer "fun" when you do it again. Even if they handed item after your first clear, it's still no longer "fun" on 2nd run because there are no point going it back.

Then why do people replay other games, even ones with no special reward for doing so? Once you beat Bowser, pummel M.Bison, or win the Madden Bowl why go back and do it again? Oh, because the game play is fun.

It's just the way it goes.

This is how innovation doesn't happen.

I also have to point out that getting items 100% is sometimes, less "fun" than not having 100% drop rate, due to lack of surprise when you see it.

Not everyone likes surprises or gambling. Some people like to work toward a goal and earn their stuff.

If you're going to complained that content is not "fun", and complained that dev is not creative enough, then I challenge you to come up with a MMO(none PvP focused) system, that 1. Can keep players play for years, without having to add new dungeons every week(no company has that kind of resources) 2. Players always have fun, never feel repetitive 3. They never do a content and get nothing. And you can't be too unrealistic with the solution(that means you can't use the resource of 200 ppl team, you have to keep the resource used minium)

That's what I pay them for. Why should I do it?

Majority of MMO do it this way, is because it's proved a winning forumla for them to sell the product. WoW, Diablo, PSO etc. If there are other MMO try other way, it's a risky gamble because it's not a winning formula.

Considering most MMOs aren't that successful, I wonder how much of a win this really is. WoW is a monster because it actively minimizes the pain of the grind. Diablo is not an MMO.

And no, Abyssea is never the solution, players cap gear in 1 month with little skill/pt organization, and players no longer have "fun" in Abyssea when they cap gear in 1 month(majority of players don't go back to abyssea after they get what they want too, proved that Abyssea is not "fun" to begin with and people only do it for gears too). Personally I had no fun in abyssea, and never understand what's so "fun" about not having anything to work on/don't want any items when you log on to the game. Game is really only interesting, when there are goals you haven't accomplish no? You log on with your mule, play for 1 month, killing easy mob by cure5 bombing DD with your WHM mule(instead of other real players), you got every item, sit in Jeuno and not knowing what to do, you honestly think that's really "fun"? You can blame other player that hates abyssea all you want, but you can't change the fact that Abyssea is overratted.

Weren't you saying something about fun being subjective before? Abyssea is a blast for me, and I still go to it and still enjoy it. It's things like the old school HNM, Salvage, old Dynamis, VW, and WoE that get on my nerves and wear down my patience. Going time and time and time again and getting nothing but a slap in the face by the random number generator is very very tiring. I and my friends could beat every NM to a bloody pulp. It gets to the point where we could practically sleepwalk through every fight because we did them so often because stuff just wouldn't drop. Where's the fun in that? That's fun to you?

I'm totally ok with anything that doesn't make every player sit in PJ with capped/identical gear playing with their WHM mule.

Other people having the same stuff as me is of no concern.

As I stated before, if you're not happy with do content and get nothing, go play single player RPG or something, when you only need to do everything ONCE and beat the game. But MMO(at least majority of mainstream MMO) is meant for you to keep playing, not do everything ONCE and quit.

Games are meant to be fun. That needs to come before anything else.

[Arcon]

"Everyone does it" is not a justification.

"Everyone does it" is an indication that maybe there's a good reason for it, which happens to be the case. You probably don't understand it because of this:

Abyssea era has most players "complained" that they have nothing to do after 1 year of Abyssea released, but not a lot of ppl complained they have nothing to do pre/post abyssea era. Hand out items fast(like Abyssea) only means dev need to release new content to replace old content more often, you really happy with capping gears in 3 months, and gears outdate/replaced every 3 months?

Yes.

No. You're not happy with that and neither is anyone else. That's not what makes MMORPGs attractive and it's not what anyone plays them for (yes, I love generalizations). MMORPGs are meant to attract through the prospect of building your character. Whether that consists of gear or experiences or stories and company is up to everyone to decide. But instant gratification is not what we play this for. That's what Angry Birds and games of that sort cater to. Even shooters qualify a lot more in that regard compared to a MMORPG (any MMORPG, not just this one). You're kidding yourself if you believe you're any different. You wouldn't wanna invest time and effort in doing something that you know you'd just forget about in a few months and will be completely irrelevant to you then.

It's not only that MMORPGs shouldn't work any other way, but they couldn't. It's impossible to sustain rapid development like that, even with generic content like Abyssea. Even doing something like that every year is a challenge, let alone three months. Developers have to find a balance between a release cycle they can maintain and not boring their customers. Too fast and they can't hold it up, which is especially dangerous because people build high expectations for it (the people that remain, which isn't everybody). Too slow and they risk boring people and start forgetting about the game or moving on to greener pastures. Grinds are what makes games like these work.

It's the developers' job to design events that can be grinded without getting boring. If events really were boring, people would lose interest after a while and stop doing it (which is the case with Voidwatch, as I'm sure many people on different servers can confirm judging by the number of shouts compared to a while ago). However, making them short-lived (for example by handing out rewards quicker) is not a solution, because it will equally stop people doing them, which brings us back to the shorter release cycle. Instead the goal should be to make them more interesting, so people would actually want to do them.

[Camiie]

"Everyone does it" is an indication that maybe there's a good reason for it, which happens to be the case. You probably don't understand it because of this:

"Maybe" is a big qualifier. I get it. We're prone to the Skinner Box effect... blah blah blah yadda yadda...

No. You're not happy with that and neither is anyone else.

Thanks for letting me know. I really had no clue what made me happy and what didn't....

That's not what makes MMORPGs attractive and it's not what anyone plays them for (yes, I love generalizations). MMORPGs are meant to attract through the prospect of building your character. Whether that consists of gear or experiences or stories and company is up to everyone to decide. But instant gratification is not what we play this for.

You do realize there's a nice wide space between "instant gratification" and "I did this same fight 400 times and have nothing to show for it" don't you? Happy mediums are happy. Where we are now is NOT a happy place.

That's what Angry Birds and games of that sort cater to. Even shooters qualify a lot more in that regard compared to a MMORPG (any MMORPG, not just this one). You're kidding yourself if you believe you're any different. You wouldn't wanna invest time and effort in doing something that you know you'd just forget about in a few months and will be completely irrelevant to you then.

Obsolete happens. I'm grateful for all my friends' help and proud of the effort I put forth, but stuff is just stuff. Gear is a stepping stone. It's a means to an end. Should top of the line gear today be top of the line 6 months from now? A year from now?

It's not only that MMORPGs shouldn't work any other way, but they couldn't. It's impossible to sustain rapid development like that, even with generic content like Abyssea. Even doing something like that every year is a challenge, let alone three months. Developers have to find a balance between a release cycle they can maintain and not boring their customers. Too fast and they can't hold it up, which is especially dangerous because people build high expectations for it (the people that remain, which isn't everybody). Too slow and they risk boring people and start forgetting about the game or moving on to greener pastures. Grinds are what makes games like these work.

I know that it's a balancing act, and I feel that SE's balance is way off. No Tanaka puns intended. Everyone wants to say what happens when the grind is too short, but tell me what happens when the grind is too long.

It's the developers' job to design events that can be grinded without getting boring. If events really were boring, people would lose interest after a while and stop doing it (which is the case with Voidwatch, as I'm sure many people on different servers can confirm judging by the number of shouts compared to a while ago). However, making them short-lived (for example by handing out rewards quicker) is not a solution, because it will equally stop people doing them, which brings us back to the shorter release cycle. Instead the goal should be to make them more interesting, so people would actually want to do them.

Seems like they're failing all the way around then. The content is dull, the grinds are too long, and the release cycle is too slow.