The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[Winrie]

If I recall correctly about a year ago SE put out their specifications for jobs and what their invisionment of the jobs role was and iirc rdm was labeled an "enfeebling specialist", nowhere in there or in the past 10 years has SE elaborated or enhanced rdms "DD" abilities because simply put, it's not a dd, same reason why rdm isn't getting aoe buffs and cure v, it's not a healer. However it's on SE now because everything is f'n resistant or immune to enfeebs and enfeeb hack whatever the hell it is they added is a complete joke, rdm is still useless and sub par compared to other jobs. Not bashing rdm dd but I am saying rdm aren't meant to fully dd, I think a rdms dd prowess shines best soloing NMs and isn't applicable to pt situations to be honest. After 10 years I think SE would of buffed our rdms for dding and/or buffed our rdms for healing, if they wanted to see rdms doing it. Even tho we cannot agree on how to play rdm and it's role ect, we all can agree we miss our rdms being viable in group situations and actually needed, and something needs to be done about it, and soon.

[tyrantsyn]

Every one's right when it comes to playing RDM, because basically there no wrong way to play it.

Problem is it's okay to nerf your melee side for really strong gear towards you magical abilities

But not okay to nerf you magically side for really strong melee abilities.

Which is shown in the really lop sided gear the job receive's. And the lack of native job trait's in melee. It's such a cool job with such a great look and style to it. And yet we have 3 job specific set's and each one has less melee traits than the last one. If they made cool RDM melee gear and made it a grind to get, ppl would spend what ever time possible to get there hands on it. And isn't that the point of the game?

[Winrie]

Melee gear not helping magical side and magical gear not helping melee out isn't a problem, gear swap. If you lose tp big deal, not like you're dealing heavy damage as rdm lol. Rdm only problem is updates to other jobs has made the jack of trades Esq style of rdm useless completely apart from whoevers decision it was to make EVERYTHING resist or immune to rdms strongest use.. Gj there.

Rdm can hit 50% cure potency yet whm has access to cure 6, we won't even get 5 to make us viable healers again, hell even sch out heals us.

Rdm can get 25% haste from gear iirc, yet rdm is weak melee wise and has no traits to back up using swords or daggers as a viable means to dd on the job.

Rdm also has good access to mab gear and such but we can be amazingly outdamaged magic wise by sch which is suppose to be along the same lines as us in the whole jack of trades job styles.

Rdm needs a unique upgrade to make it useable again.

[Lilia]

weak melee...hm..

with almace and nin duo you can do easy ws +2-4k dark sc, i dont think that is weak


both from my side, fencer is nice and help dmg when i go solo rdm/drk
Rdm/drk for solo abyss keyitem farm

[ManaKing]

weak melee...hm..

with almace and nin duo you can do easy ws +2-4k dark sc, i dont think that is weak


both from my side, fencer is nice and help dmg when i go solo rdm/drk
Rdm/drk for solo abyss keyitem farm

You can do better with Requiescat and an Excalibur. Our Melee REQUIRES a prestige weapon to be viable unlike every other job in the game. It's a catch 22.

[Demon6324236]

Be it enfeebling specialist or not, its still a hybrid job and always has been. Thats like saying BLU learns spells from mobs, its a mimic specialist, well yes, it has that kind of ability that is specializes in, however its still a hybrid. As I said before the problem is that we have been mage heavy through it all. In our entire spell list there are only 4 melee or front line spells before lv85. En-spell line(counting as 1 as it can only have 1 up at a time), Spikes(same as en-spells), Phalanx, and Haste. Up to that point we also have 0 melee traits or abilities. After 85, we have Shield Mastery, Gain-STR, Gain-DEX, and Temper. In total we have 8 things for melee at lv99 while magic abilities soar far above those. This is the main reason why RDM has any problems meleeing on the same level as a light DD, such as THF, or NIN, where as BLU is on that level or past them even when counting their Self Skillchain power.

Melee gear not helping magical side and magical gear not helping melee out isn't a problem, gear swap.

All RDMs should gear swap anyways, as being a jack-of-all-trades it has way to many things to be doing with only 1 set of gear involved.

.Rdm can hit 50% cure potency yet whm has access to cure 6, we won't even get 5 to make us viable healers again, hell even sch out heals us.

When you think of it, it makes some sense. WHM, Cure 5&6 along with 1 ability to double potency. SCH, Cure 4 only, however it gets an ability it can nearly spam that adds 50~60% cure on top of everything else, which adds upto a Cure 6 in power. RDM is more spread than SCH, so it gets the short end of the stick in return for its other abilities, and gets only Cure 4, however it has the fastest casting in the group so it has at least some advantage, not to mention extra MP durability in places it matters.

Rdm can get 25% haste from gear iirc, yet rdm is weak melee wise and has no traits to back up using swords or daggers as a viable means to dd on the job.

Its because we have no melee or traits, we are stuck subbing 1 of 2 certain jobs to DD neither of which give us particularly great DD traits outside of Dual Wield.

Rdm also has good access to mab gear and such but we can be amazingly outdamaged magic wise by sch which is suppose to be along the same lines as us in the whole jack of trades job styles.

Not so much. think of WAR WHM & BLM as primary jobs. WAR+BLM=DRK WAR+WHM=PLD WHM+BLM=SCH & WAR+BLM+WHM=RDM. They are spread between the 2 magic groups, however lack the melee power. This melee power RDM has is why it loses some of its spells. RDM could easily out nuke a stupid SCH given T5 spells. However SCH even out nukes BLM if they know how to play & gear the job, because you can abuse weather & day bonus easily and that adds on multipliers that you can abuse on any element, any zone, any day. So to say we lose on that makes perfect sense, RDM nuking has always sucked, and since we wont be getting T5s any time soon, I assume its not going to change much.

Rdm needs a unique upgrade to make it useable again.

I think SE wants RDM to have next to no unique parts at all actually. I mean look at what they have done. Everything RDM has, another job has. Phalanx & Gravity are the exceptions to this, but everything else, something has in some way.

weak melee...hm..

with almace and nin duo you can do easy ws +2-4k dark sc, i dont think that is weak


both from my side, fencer is nice and help dmg when i go solo rdm/drk
Rdm/drk for solo abyss keyitem farm

RDM can put out nice numbers, but your numbers sound like Abyssea, where you must remember that all jobs are over powered. However I agree it is a good DD given the right gear & skill, but you have to basically be one of the best possibly melee RDMs there are to match up to a somewhat average NIN or THF. Which makes it a little sad, as for Fencer, it would help but its situational use is why I think people say they don't care about it. Which is understandable, not alot of times would you be trying to DD and not /DNC or NIN but still, I would like it myself.

You can do better with Requiescat and an Excalibur. Our Melee REQUIRES a prestige weapon to be viable unlike every other job in the game. It's a catch 22.

Almace can be fairly effective as well, however I have no Excalibur just yet, still 10 Silvers away, so I can not speak as if its better or the same. As RDM we cant really be lazy with weapons, its either Relic/Mythic/Emp or we are too weak to be worthwhile.

[Economizer]

At the same time, would it kill them to give us at least some job traits for melee? I mean seriously if you look down our current list we have...

Magic Attack Bonus I~III
Magic Defense Bonus I~III
Fast Cast I~V
Clear Mind I~III
Shield Mastery I~II
Resist Petrify I~II
Magic Burst Bonus I~III
Tranquil Heart

The thing with FFXI is that a lot of mage stats will help you as a melee type class quite often. The majority of these stats help a Red Mage melee.

Magic Attack Bonus helps with magic type weapon skills. The best examples that come to mind are Aeolian Edge and Sanguine Blade, however Red Mage only has one of those (changing this would help greatly).

Magic Defense Bonus helps you stand in the thick of area of effect damage and even sometimes helps to tank magic damage. Resist Petrify traits also help in this regard.

Fast Cast is by far the best melee stat Red Mage gets. The less time you spend in the middle of casting a spell, the more time you get to spend doing melee. Just because it is also the best magic stat Red Mage gets doesn't detract from the boost it gives to the melee side.

Magic Burst Bonus helps in theory, but since a Red Mage's ability to self skillchain is somewhat low, this isn't as useful as previously mentioned traits. Shield Defense Bonus is roughly in the same boat - on paper it might help melee, but the way the game is optimally played goes against this.

I think we should get some melee traits as well...

Of the traits mentioned, there are three I'd like to focus on.

Attack Bonus I-II as a trait seems more like something you'd add for flavor. While +22 or so attack from the trait is quite nice, I think what would be better is a trait that enhances attack by a percentage against a mob that has Dia on it. This way, even if SE refuses to give higher tiers of Dia - which would be a melee RDM buff as well as a buff to any party the RDM is in - Red Mage itself will have more attack, especially since it could be a percentage buff rather then a numerical one. To make it even more juicy, have a small bonus applied to Red Mage's Magic Attack against Dia'd mobs.

Next is Accuracy Bonus. Accuracy Bonus I and Composure both give about 10 accuracy, and a tier II trait would only give ~22 accuracy, making this really just a flavor adjustment. Personally, I think it would be better to boost accuracy gained from Composure as levels go up. One way to do this would be to tie the accuracy bonus Composure gives to what it has now as a base, then increase it with higher Enhancing Magic skill. As an example to demonstrate how this could work, but not a suggestion of actual numbers, Composure would retain the current 10 accuracy base, and then for every 5 Enhancing Magic after 150, Red Mage would gain 1 accuracy, with the effect capping at 500 Enhancing Magic, meaning a Red Mage with 420 Enhancing Magic would gain 54 accuracy, just for having capped and merited Enhancing Magic under Composure.

The last trait I'd like to give mention to is Occult Acumen. While I'd also like there to be a corresponding trait for healing magic as well that Red Mage would also get, I don't really see any good reason for Red Mage not to have this trait in some measure. This is not only a good hybrid type skill, but also a perfect complement to Fast Cast.

"Melee" side is a matter of WS selection and gear options. Fix those and we're set.

I'd tend to agree more with this then even giving Red Mage more traits.

Giving Red Mage Sanguine Blade would be the main change on this. It is such an important weapon skill but sword users have to choose between it and Dual Wield.

On gear options, Red Mage is in a much better spot then it was when Abyssea came out. The situation could be better but Red Mage could be a somewhat successful melee even if the trend continued as is and other changes were made, and I'd like to recognize this now.

That said, I'd really like to see SE make good on its words about giving Red Mage gear that gives Fencer even if it wasn't a promise, and among other things, I'd like to see a set of gear for the three frontline capable white magic users. And of course, just being on more melee gear in general would be nice too.

That said, I'd vote for a new Job Trait.

main-gauche
Allows user to equip a parrying-dagger in their left hand. (sub slot)
Level 40 - RDM (10% Delay reduction)

While I'd prefer a fix for 1h weapons in general, particularly with a more viable alternative to Dual Wield, this is an interesting idea.

I think allowing the trait to be more versatile by just having the requirements be that one of the weapons carried is a dagger, or that the offhand weapon be a dagger would be perfect. While this would still kill usage by WHM/BLU, it would open up a lot more usage options rather then just a RDM, PLD, COR, and WAR getting very niche usage out of it.

Bards everywhere for example would be overjoyed with the ability to Dual Wield daggers without having to give up Red Mage sub. Rangers and Corsairs would be able to use them for a bunch of Dual Wield options. Twilight Knife Beastmasters would crop up. BLM/SCH/SMN would be able to use it for Aeolian Edge more effectively as well, as well as Club/Dagger Dual Wield. I think the only downside is that you wouldn't really get to see BLM/SCH/SMN forced to use a Rune Blade if they want to Dual Wield (speaking of which, that kinda makes me wonder if we'll see more bilbo style swords with BLM on them).

Even a small change like this would extend the usefulness of an ability, but Red Mage would still get the most usage out of the trait, since they could sub something to get Sanguine Blade and maybe some other useful job traits without purely giving up Dual Wield.

I always assumed the problem with rdm was that SE's paradigm for them is to be jack of all trades and master of none,

Despite FFXI and its min/max, this still wouldn't be so bad... until you realize you can do everything better with another jack of all trades job like BLU or SCH that has more power due to stances.

Yet Red Mage has to choose between below average magic damage and crap melee damage or below average melee damage and crap magic damage because of the choice between magic staves (which RDM has no skill in) and melee weapons (which have no affinity), but doesn't gain the benefits from stancing in this way either since it isn't a spell set list or a job ability.

I wonder if anyone could think of a middle ground between melee damage and magic damage that doesn't involve losing all your TP from swapping out weapons. I'll resist my common suggestion regarding this for now (although anyone could guess what it would be) just in case someone has a suggestion for this.

Rdm can hit 50% cure potency yet whm has access to cure 6, we won't even get 5 to make us viable healers again, hell even sch out heals us.

You don't understand how healing works if you think that Cure VI is a reason to give anyone Cure V. You don't understand how healing works if you think that Cure V is the reason White Mage is a better healer then Red Mage.

Healing in FFXI primarily works on the principle that you get enough to just barely not die during a fight, then you kill the mob faster, which will make the fight safer far better then adding more healing will. This means that if you heal "good enough" then the better healer doesn't matter if you can end the fight faster.

Ever since the (much needed) adjustments to the cure formula, Cure I-IV has been adequate for most healing if you have sufficient gear and healing magic skill. For the handful of things it does not cover, some are then covered with Afflatus Solace or Auroastorm, which are roughly on par with each other. Since the adjustment, Cure V hardly cures more then a well equipped WHM's Cure IV will, while being less MP efficient, making Cure V more of a secondary cast timer. Cure VI doesn't cure that much more then Cure V either, while costing a significantly large amount of MP that cureskin ratios can't even fix, making it a glorified emergency cure that is basically unnecessary in any meaningful way to White Mage's function.

The primary reason why White Mage is a better healer however is the Curaga line of spells, which far outpace the difference between Cure IV and Cure V. People just ask for Cure V because they see Cure VI without understanding how crap that spell is or how healing even works in the slightest way (do we really need people who don't understand healing even participating in the discussion about how it should be adjusted?), and because it sounds like less to ask for then getting access to AoE cures. There are better arguments for Red Mage getting Cure V (very few of which actually involving anything White Mage gets, but rather what other jobs get) that actually hold any logic, but I struggle to think of arguments worse then "Cure VI" for a reason to start handing out Cure V.

[Calatilla]

I think SE wants RDM to have next to no unique parts at all actually. I mean look at what they have done. Everything RDM has, another job has. Phalanx & Gravity are the exceptions to this, but everything else, something has in some way.

Phalanx isnt unique to RDM, PLD gets it natively now. Gravity is the only spell RDM has that you can't get without /rdm

The player base can't decide on what updates RDM should get because they don't know where RDM should be in regards to group events. Any mage job can enfeeble just as good as a RDM and they can also do their own jobs on top of that.

SE has taken everything from RDM and given us nothing in return because they don't have a clue where they want the job either. When people come up with good ideas of improving the job SE take those ideas and create 2 new jobs, which in turn puts RDM deeper into the hole that its been in since the 75 cap was lifted.

RDM was never really proficient at anything at 75 either as you said, other jobs had enfeebles as good as ours its just that those jobs, particularly whm and blm didn't gear specifically to enfeeble endgame mobs like they do now. The only thing we were good at during the 75 era was merit pts as a healer, and thats only because of convert and refresh, now anybody subbing /rdm gets those so we can't even do that anymore.

Some people might disagree with me here, but I`ve always seen SCH as what RDM should have been in the first place. It's like someone at a dev meeting came up with all these great ideas of improving on the job but couldn't decide how best to implement them so they just said screw it, and made SCH, everything a RDM is, just better.

And SE never once said "SCH is king of dot" until someone asked for dia/bio 4 for RDM. And the only spells they have that are DOT are helix spells.

[Demon6324236]

I forgot PLD has Phalanx but yeah, your right. But thats kinda my point, nothing is unique to RDM anymore, the last few things we do or did have will be taken by GEO & Rune I'm sure, I mean Rune already seems to be getting En-spells, whos to say GEO isn't going to get Gravity aura to slap on mobs? Its just how RDM is, but we need to be good at everything so that even though we aren't unique, we have the power to do it all. Thats where it fails.

As for everything that was said about adding traits/gear, if we had more gear I wouldn't say we need traits, but when looking at RDM against BLU in gear we get so left out while BLU can make themselves have melee traits as well, I think its only fair RDM get something after all of this time. As I pointed out in another thread over in General Discussion, BLU has access to melee & mage sets in alot of content where as RDM only gets mage. I see BLU as what RDM should be like, not the same, but similar, however RDM gets the short end of the stick by being slapped on the mage side with everything while its melee is left to rot in most cases. Asking for traits is only 1 path that leads to the same solution, give RDM more melee options for attack and accuracy among other stats that would help it, just like BLU has, after that I will be perfectly happy where the job sits.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's why I'm so adamant for Faith and Brave, I like the concept of Temper, in that it grants a type of trait under spell format.

The idea of augmenting yourself via the means of spells to me is a really good idea, so while they're not the best at the jobs, they can augment themselves to be much better, but Temper isn't enough. More unique spells are needed.

Things like:

Magic Attack Bonus, Accuracy, Fencer, Conserve MP, Subtle Blow etc....