ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

[Rambus]

Yes and no. In comparison they are alot less time consuming than getting a relic. But people really exaggerate how easy it is. And they always use the easiest trials as an example. Especially Kannagi. "Just go solo ur Emp eapon in 3days to a week."Always exclude the prelimanary leg work of campin the easy nms. And soloing the vnms is great if ur a nin, maybe a few other jobs...but what if your a drg for instance and need shoggoth? And, this may be a news flash...but not every nin can solo equally. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people posting that they're soloable had help. And while I don't doubt that there have been people that completed it in a week, I wouldn't say that's the norm and I'm extremely skeptical that they soloed it in that time. Just the time u need to gather the Ki for all the kills u need could take a week, unless you live on this game and farm a massive amount of time beforehand (which, in itself, takes time). So, possible in a week for some of the trials. YES. But by that rational it's possible to get a relic in less than 2 weeks. In short, there's no reason why an empyrean weapon holder should feel any less about they're accomplishment. Don't let yourselves get brainwashed by the propaganda.

I am getting an emp for my self the sword

I was not hard core on it but this is what I did:
first night I killed some serrpord ishatar
then i went to kill tottering toby before ls event
I did drooling daisy that night to next day

gargantua I killed just before ls event and i got back before it pop again
killed it few more times.

megaloudbard I wait and camp it and team up with this other guy that ran by after 3 kills I was /rng and i taught him how PH work with wide scan in knowing witch one is PH

Ratatoskr is like gargantua, i killed one before ls event and got back to pop place after event

VNM I had scorp I got help because the scrop is hard with aoe and such
then i had pugail and i soloed the bug versions, in past zone it was not using 2 hr or tp move, i asked some frineds if they wanted to tag along and they did.
Tammuz I try looking one night for liek 1 hr and all that was poping was cat.
so i went to sleep and try again nexty day.
I try to solo it and had no luck , i asked frined to help me and they did.

so overall nm was solo to duo cept for scorp, when i was doing scrop there was ls memeber that was free so i went to do it.

for briarus I exp a lot so in exp pt i get KI then go pop and kill it with brew.

I really do not like soloing and i am kind of bad at it, I do understand some emps are way harder then others like i help a friend do some gaivoids. with good friends though people do actally have them that took a week. there is people that did a better job then me in getting emps.

But people went in detail how they got thiers done in a week even with harder ones like h2h? and dagger.

Yeah...super easy...if you have your ls do it for you. Not an option for everyone. I am in agreement that relics take longer but to say it's easy and then say my ls got it in a week...Using that same logic an ls can pool all their gil together...do a couple dyna runs...and get someone a relic in under 2 weeks.

only if you have gil before hand, to earn that kind of gil in 2 weeks even if everyone farms it for you?

even NIN did not get relics that fast, they got a lot and fast selling rare ex items but not that fast.

Yes and making emp weapons obsolete because the are easy to get(which has been stated many times). I'm sure SE didn't Intend for people to be able to obtain emp weapons so easy but just like relics people find ways to get them faster through gil, ball-shinning or whatever.

emp weapons where made to bridge have and have nots, there is a lot of gear like that.

not all emp weapons are the best, and that fact is shown a lot better outside abyssea, it is only a few

so its likey SE overlooked the bonuses of atma and such

i/e any emp that outperfromed a relic is likey a mistake.

I am not going to rage when my sword is underperform mythic ( blu, rdm, pld) and relic for PLD, rdm, blu.
it is to be expected.

I thnk its somewhat strange you really expected these weapons to outdo relics/ mythics.

why rage?

[Kitkat]

Yeah...super easy...if you have your ls do it for you. Not an option for everyone. I am in agreement that relics take longer but to say it's easy and then say my ls got it in a week...Using that same logic an ls can pool all their gil together...do a couple dyna runs...and get someone a relic in under 2 weeks.

I find it incredibly amusing you state this knowing full well that there is probably, at best, only a small handful of LS willing to pool resources like that into finishing one relic weapon in 2 weeks. Not to mention that you think there is enough currency in circulation for that to be plausible. Especially when there isn't much of anything to gain for the rest of the LS out of it, no benefit what so ever.

Doing Emp weapons, you get the benefit of gaining +2 items for legs, body, head, etc for 85+ trials. This benefits not only the person getting the drops for the weapon but others helping the person get the weapon done.

Additionally, none of these nm's require anywhere near the effort to kill let alone meet the conditions to pop. Attestation mobs require that an Eye be killed up by Nue's tower, then aggroing the attestation NM results in several hydra to spawn, and lastly you have a 1/3 chance of even getting the attestation you need. Then there is the Fragment nm which requires you to kill 15 NM to make them "real" and when pulled spawn additional mobs and lets not forget the fact you have to kill it before it gets bored or it warps out and you can't pull it again until the next run you do. If you can't get funded, or even if you do, you then need to gain all of the currency up to that point. Max collection per run I've seen is around 600 on average, 800 peak, and as low as 300 and that translates to 3, 6, or 8 pieces per run. Incredibly lucky runs every time you still have to do at least 13 runs to get the final stage done, 7 for forth, and another 15 for first 3 stages. This relies on spamming the specific zones also since Jeuno, Northlands, and Dream lands drop mixtures of the 3 currency type. Each run takes on average 2 1/2 - 3 hours so using the low end that is 87 1/2 hours at the very least and requires luck on 100 drops with full clears. This is then restricted by the fact you can't turn around and re-enter right away like you can in abyssea. Even after the mentioned changes this is a min. of 35-40 days back to back. Then, after you get it to finished lvl 75 product you have to do several trials to get it up to level 90, which may take up to another 4-7 days to finish. Bare min you are looking at nearly a month in a half if incredibly lucky with currency drops (which in my experience is very very rare to get over 500 per run). All this...for one person with little to no incentive to keep people there until the end.

Emp weapon nm? First 6 trials will take you about 21~30 hours worth of your time to complete (yes, 21-30 hours is all it took me since I /rng'd and killed PH. Longest respawn was 3 hours, typical was 1 hour). The VNM trials you can get done in another 20 hours (since vnm have multiple areas to spawn in and respawn in an hour). Up to this point you can have a full alliance worth of people holding the lvl 75 product. 1/3 to 3/3 KI or lesser pop items for the single KI you need to spawn them can be gotten out of Gold pyxis, or the NM's respawn every 10~15min to get the KI this way. The NM's themselves only require a max of 3-4 people to kill, and you have a 100% chance of getting at least 1 drop with the possibility of 2. Respawn of the ??? is only a few min, and you can stay in abyssea indefinitely so long as you build time. Alternatively you can turn around and re-enter abyssea to add more time or end up with only a 1 hour cool down before you can re-enter. Takes less than 2 days to get 75-85 with 8 people constantly rotating to get pop sets, about a week max for a group of 3-4 constantly rotating. Meanwhile these people are getting +2 items for Emp Armor as an incentive to keep helping.

Yeah....relic is not easier nor near as rewarding to do just for one person to gain something just to be made a great DoT weapon "on paper" which is then ruined by Emp weapons ODD's much higher process rate compare to the 2.5-3x dmg and additional effect process rate of relics. If you can't look at the facts and see where the relic weapon holders are coming from when doing a compare/contrast or only try to say "Well relic can be done just as fast if X amount of people do something completely unrealistic for one person." Then you must be living in some idealistic world where people actually want only one person to reap the rewards of a group. That isn't even remotely logical reasoning considering the type of people you deal with on an MMO. People are far more willing to help a person reach a goal if there is mutual gain for effort put forth. Even real life revolves around this simple concept. You go to work to further someone else far above you on the economical chain, but you do so for monetary compensation. No one goes to work for nothing and I don't expect an entire LS to do the same without giving them something in return.

Leaving relics the way they are now isn't just an insult to the person who owns the weapon, but to the people who put forth the effort for that person to weild it also. It is a mutual shame felt all around considering the time and effort it takes compared to a weapon an entire LS can work on, gain more from, and receive an impressive DD boost out of in less than a week worth of time.

[Auredant]

I find it incredibly amusing you state this knowing full well that there is probably, at best, only a small handful of LS willing to pool resources like that into finishing one relic weapon in 2 weeks. Not to mention that you think there is enough currency in circulation for that to be plausible. Especially when there isn't much of anything to gain for the rest of the LS out of it, no benefit what so ever.

Doing Emp weapons, you get the benefit of gaining +2 items for legs, body, head, etc for 85+ trials. This benefits not only the person getting the drops for the weapon but others helping the person get the weapon done.

Additionally, none of these nm's require anywhere near the effort to kill let alone meet the conditions to pop. Attestation mobs require that an Eye be killed up by Nue's tower, then aggroing the attestation NM results in several hydra to spawn, and lastly you have a 1/3 chance of even getting the attestation you need. Then there is the Fragment nm which requires you to kill 15 NM to make them "real" and when pulled spawn additional mobs and lets not forget the fact you have to kill it before it gets bored or it warps out and you can't pull it again until the next run you do. If you can't get funded, or even if you do, you then need to gain all of the currency up to that point. Max collection per run I've seen is around 600 on average, 800 peak, and as low as 300 and that translates to 3, 6, or 8 pieces per run. Incredibly lucky runs every time you still have to do at least 13 runs to get the final stage done, 7 for forth, and another 15 for first 3 stages. This relies on spamming the specific zones also since Jeuno, Northlands, and Dream lands drop mixtures of the 3 currency type. Each run takes on average 2 1/2 - 3 hours so using the low end that is 87 1/2 hours at the very least and requires luck on 100 drops with full clears. This is then restricted by the fact you can't turn around and re-enter right away like you can in abyssea. Even after the mentioned changes this is a min. of 35-40 days back to back. Then, after you get it to finished lvl 75 product you have to do several trials to get it up to level 90, which may take up to another 4-7 days to finish. Bare min you are looking at nearly a month in a half if incredibly lucky with currency drops (which in my experience is very very rare to get over 500 per run). All this...for one person with little to no incentive to keep people there until the end.

Emp weapon nm? First 6 trials will take you about 21~30 hours worth of your time to complete (yes, 21-30 hours is all it took me since I /rng'd and killed PH. Longest respawn was 3 hours, typical was 1 hour). The VNM trials you can get done in another 20 hours (since vnm have multiple areas to spawn in and respawn in an hour). Up to this point you can have a full alliance worth of people holding the lvl 75 product. 1/3 to 3/3 KI or lesser pop items for the single KI you need to spawn them can be gotten out of Gold pyxis, or the NM's respawn every 10~15min to get the KI this way. The NM's themselves only require a max of 3-4 people to kill, and you have a 100% chance of getting at least 1 drop with the possibility of 2. Respawn of the ??? is only a few min, and you can stay in abyssea indefinitely so long as you build time. Alternatively you can turn around and re-enter abyssea to add more time or end up with only a 1 hour cool down before you can re-enter. Takes less than 2 days to get 75-85 with 8 people constantly rotating to get pop sets, about a week max for a group of 3-4 constantly rotating. Meanwhile these people are getting +2 items for Emp Armor as an incentive to keep helping.

Yeah....relic is not easier nor near as rewarding to do just for one person to gain something just to be made a great DoT weapon "on paper" which is then ruined by Emp weapons ODD's much higher process rate compare to the 2.5-3x dmg and additional effect process rate of relics. If you can't look at the facts and see where the relic weapon holders are coming from when doing a compare/contrast or only try to say "Well relic can be done just as fast if X amount of people do something completely unrealistic for one person." Then you must be living in some idealistic world where people actually want only one person to reap the rewards of a group. That isn't even remotely logical reasoning considering the type of people you deal with on an MMO. People are far more willing to help a person reach a goal if there is mutual gain for effort put forth. Even real life revolves around this simple concept. You go to work to further someone else far above you on the economical chain, but you do so for monetary compensation. No one goes to work for nothing and I don't expect an entire LS to do the same without giving them something in return.

Leaving relics the way they are now isn't just an insult to the person who owns the weapon, but to the people who put forth the effort for that person to weild it also. It is a mutual shame felt all around considering the time and effort it takes compared to a weapon an entire LS can work on, gain more from, and receive an impressive DD boost out of in less than a week worth of time.

It was about what's possible not likely. I know the drop rates and spawn conditions of the hydra NMs. And your exaggerating their difficulty. The fragments can be annoying but only if your ill prepared. I've already stated that I acknowledge relics are more of a time/gil investment. I also know people who have got their relics in 3 months, which, while much longer than your typical empyrean, isn't an incredible amount of time. It's just annoying to hear how easy it is to get an empyrean weapon when not everyone has the help that you apparently did. And there's nothing at all wrong with you getting that help, that's not what I'm saying. It's not available to everyone. Your talking about "optimal" conditions not typical. I've noticed alot more player apathy unless it's something that benefits them. I'm happy for you that this is not your experience. Players used to help eachother more and that feeling is waning, sad to say. On the bright side, with the fast leveling introduced by abbyssea you only need a couple friends to do them. But that means...less people holding KIs....less pops per session. And thats if the friends are working only for one. Before you even touch the Emp drop Abby NMs. It will take u a couple days minimum. And thats if you practically live on the game. Then if you have an alli holding KIs for you it can be done in a couple settings per zone. or 1 setting if you farm time before hand, but that again, takes more time. then same thing for the next stage. same for the next stage. 3rd stage usually takes a lil more prep and time but not a terrible amount. Under IDEAL circumstances.
My ONLY point is how long would it have taken you without the help? And i'm not talkin bout the nms...the extra people are there mainly to hold KI...but lets say u were doing it with a friend and u guys duo Ki and bosses. How long would it have taken you then?
In short if you say the can be done in 3 days to a week in ideal conditions and with alot of help I'd have no problem with that. And thats for the easier trials. I just chuckle when ppl pooh pooh something and call it easy when they had a ton of help. Duo ur emp to 85 in a week start to finish. Then ur comment wont be misleading or an exaggeration.

[Alderin]

Ok so I am guilty of not reading through this thread before posting however -

For once, regarding this topic - can we please keep disagreements to a minimum. There are plenty of threads already arguing the issue of Empyrean vs. Mythic vs. Relic, and the flames, trolls and disagreements can stay in those threads.

My assumption for the OP was to simply compile a list of threads that are currently requesting this change or "boost" into one, so the Dev team can make up their own mind about what they would like to do about it.

The simple fact is for the relic & mythic holders - (stolen from some one other's post in a different thread here Time Spent does not equal reward on this one. Or in fact even come close to it with the release of Empyrean weapons.

*In my opinion* at the very least Empyrean, Mythic, Relic should all be equal (at the very least) however have different enhancements / aftermath effects, with perhaps a slight offset in damage to balance them out.

I repeat, lets try and keep flaming/trolling to a minimum on this one. (No, I am not a moderator, but sick of reading the same people repeat the same arguments).

Peace,

Alderin

[Alderin]

It was about what's possible not likely. I know the drop rates and spawn conditions of the hydra NMs. And your exaggerating their difficulty. The fragments can be annoying but only if your ill prepared. I've already stated that I acknowledge relics are more of a time/gil investment. I also know people who have got their relics in 3 months, which, while much longer than your typical empyrean, isn't an incredible amount of time. It's just annoying to hear how easy it is to get an empyrean weapon when not everyone has the help that you apparently did. And there's nothing at all wrong with you getting that help, that's not what I'm saying. It's not available to everyone. Your talking about "optimal" conditions not typical. I've noticed alot more player apathy unless it's something that benefits them. I'm happy for you that this is not your experience. Players used to help eachother more and that feeling is waning, sad to say. On the bright side, with the fast leveling introduced by abbyssea you only need a couple friends to do them. But that means...less people holding KIs....less pops per session. And thats if the friends are working only for one. Before you even touch the Emp drop Abby NMs. It will take u a couple days minimum. And thats if you practically live on the game. Then if you have an alli holding KIs for you it can be done in a couple settings per zone. or 1 setting if you farm time before hand, but that again, takes more time. then same thing for the next stage. same for the next stage. 3rd stage usually takes a lil more prep and time but not a terrible amount. Under IDEAL circumstances.
My ONLY point is how long would it have taken you without the help? And i'm not talkin bout the nms...the extra people are there mainly to hold KI...but lets say u were doing it with a friend and u guys duo Ki and bosses. How long would it have taken you then?
In short if you say the can be done in 3 days to a week in ideal conditions and with alot of help I'd have no problem with that. And thats for the easier trials. I just chuckle when ppl pooh pooh something and call it easy when they had a ton of help. Duo ur emp to 85 in a week start to finish. Then ur comment wont be misleading or an exaggeration.

I am currently solo'ing mine, (at least solo'ing the pops and getting a WHM to run along side me every now and again), and it probably won't take more then 1-2 weeks to finish it off to at least the 85 version (which is better then the relic lvl 90 mind you). I am not spamming them, just fitting in a pop here and there when I have time. So I can see where you are coming from - Empyreans can take longer then the stated time frame. Kitkat was simply giving an example of a possible - and common strategy in which to get them done quickly.

If I was putting the same amount of effort into a Relic as I was my Empyrean - it would take me years to get. I believe the thing that annoys relic & mythic owners (in which I can understand, even though I don't own one) is time spent does not equal reward. It used to - because it was the best weapon in the game, however it no longer is due to the level cap rise and the need for a new "elite" weapon. I mean new content - who's complaining? However I believe Relic and Mythic weapons should not be forgotten here.

Anyway you can read my arguments in the 3-4 other threads I have posted in regarding this issue. I dont feel as though the OP did not intend this thread to go into a big debate (even though it's a given that it will). So let's try and save the debates for the other threads and not make another "Empyreans pwn j00, rem0ve relic from game!!!!11one!" thread.

Relics and Mythics need a boost, Empyreans are fine as they are. End of story

/rant.

[Kiba]

Thank you Alderin. That was exactly my intention and that is why I haven't actively engaged in any arguments. We all have our own respectable opinions on this subject, however the people who will make the decision at the end will be the development team. While it would be nice if my suggestions would be implemented, I think it would just be appreciative just to have a response on what are the intended plans for the weapons to shed some light even if the current status is what was intended.

[Kitkat]

I could say more, but I won't since there really isn't more need to. I've also voiced my piece in other threads, just leaves a sour taste in my mouth when people underplay the fact there is an actual reason why people made these topics. I just hope that someone in the moderation department or and SE developer understands that pretty much everyone from all parts of the globe share the same consensus on the matter and make an effort to increase them.

[Alderin]

*bump before this post gets buried*

[Atomic_Skull]

Relics: Give the level 90 relics "Aftermath: Occasionally attacks twice" and replace the hidden 25% relic WS damage bonus with "Weaponskill damage +75%" explicitly stated on the weapon (counts toward all WS not just the relic WS)


Change aftermath on the level 90 Mythics to give all three effects at once (ATT ACC and OAT) at 100% TP with more TP granting an increased duration and replace the 15% hidden Mythic WS damage bonus with "WS damage +50%"

There, Relics and Mythics are now fixed.

[Gildrein]

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.