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Thread: Bow: Which one?

  1. #11
    Player hiko's Avatar
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    Meuporg
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    Ragnarok
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    BST Lv 99
    yes! use temp items zerg proc get item back use them again...
    (1)

  2. #12
    Player Feliciaa's Avatar
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    Feliciaa
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    Phoenix
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    RNG Lv 90
    Guess it's just different play styles then. Because every JR RNG I have seen can't even crit enough times to beat Namas Arrow spam and that does even less then relic gun.
    (0)

  3. #13
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    And exactly what event in FFXI requires "hate control" right now? We haven't practiced that since 2007~2009 time, depending on your shells tactics.

    The whole idea behind Coronach RNG was that you could use it on fights where you had two PLDs tanking some huge a$$ HNM and kept the melee to an absolute minimum to control TP feed. The RNG could stand with the BLMs and bring the HNM's HP down while saying out of aoe range, this required the RNG to keep their hate as low as possible which limited their damage. A Coronach RNG didn't have this issue and could spam Coronach all day long. The moment we moved away from those world time spawned NMs it become an outdated tactic, just like turtle PLD and kited fights.

    To the OP, JR is the strongest physical ranged WS @5.85 fTP 60% DEX and can crit for whatever that's worth to Rangers. LS isn't far behind @ 4.4 fTP 100% AGI, and I can see LS beating JR if you can get enough AGI. WF gets special mention as it's magic damage and a completely different build, 5.5 fTP @60% AGI, use's MAB and fAGI 2x(pAGI-mINT). Apex is 3.2fTP 100% AGI and ignores 15% def, similar to a 17.6% attack bonus, it's better then slugwinder but not at LS / JR level. Of interesting note for COR's who haven't finished their WF yet is Leaden Salute, 4.2 fTP 30% AGI and uses the same fAGI as WF and is dark based magic damage.

    Physical WS's require expensive ammo and large amounts of attack, we're talking /WAR ranged attack food and attack buffs. The magic ones only require the appropriate HQ staff and M.acc / M.atk gear, the ammo has nearly no effect on the WS itself. Pick what you need and go with it.
    (2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  4. #14
    Player Vortex's Avatar
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    Character
    Mystina
    World
    Cerberus
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    RNG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Feliciaa View Post
    Guess it's just different play styles then. Because every JR RNG I have seen can't even crit enough times to beat Namas Arrow spam and that does even less then relic gun.
    "scratches head" what kind of rangers are you playing with, i have yet to meet a namas spaming rng beat me out on JR spam, hate was never an issue, at all. even then, since most things are in VW it's called Gnosis drink.

    and FYI i have all 3, anni, gandiva and arma, i don't have yoichi because quite possibly, it's useless to rng, its a SAM play toy. it does not touch Gandiva in anyway. yes, it is strong, but no where near gandivas power, if you are concerd about hate you must play with some terrible dds, because i can fire off 5 JR and the mob dosnt even hit me because it's to busy being played tennis with and swinging at the WARS and DRKs the moment they land a hit, which brings us back tot he caped hate thing that was discussed eariler.

    yes i do love anni better tho, but it's pretty costly to full time.
    (3)
    Last edited by Vortex; 06-02-2012 at 06:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soranika View Post
    Rajas ring is as outdated as Tamas ring at this point.
    -_-....

  5. #15
    Player Darwena's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    Character
    Darwena
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Thank you about the feedback. So if I understood: JR > other Archery WS but guns do bigger score.
    (1)

    If it bleeds, I can kill it.
    If it doesn't bleeds...
    I can probably kill it too.

  6. #16
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darwena View Post
    Thank you about the feedback. So if I understood: JR > other Archery WS but guns do bigger score.
    Huh? Not understanding that last part.

    For RNG's, Gandiva Archery is the best for damage. If you don't have Gandiva then Gun with Last Stand is next up. Armageddon gets special mention because while it'll be less then a fully buffed JR, people often stick RNG's with the mages and thus you might not be getting the buffs to make JR shine. WF spam doesn't require external buffs to make it do great damage, so it's an option.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Huh? Not understanding that last part.

    For RNG's, Gandiva Archery is the best for damage. If you don't have Gandiva then Gun with Last Stand is next up. Armageddon gets special mention because while it'll be less then a fully buffed JR, people often stick RNG's with the mages and thus you might not be getting the buffs to make JR shine. WF spam doesn't require external buffs to make it do great damage, so it's an option.
    Are you serious? Last Stand destroys Jishnu's; it's not even close enough to be worth debating... If you don't have a gun, THEN JR is next up, but why would you not have a gun when Armageddon is easier to upgrade than Gandiva? Second of all, Armageddon will outperform Gandiva by a huge margin, not because of WF spam (lol), but because of Last Stand. Most people assume Annihilator is the king of RNG weapons, which I agree with under most circumstances, but Armageddon is right up there with it. I have both @99 now and the difference between them is pretty minor. Of course, coronach is really what makes Annihilator invaluable.

    Thirdly, as a more general comment, don't play RNG if you're not willing to spend the gil to play it well. If you're just upgrading a bow because you think it's cheaper then you might as well upgrade something for a different job that's actually useful.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Helel View Post
    Are you serious? Last Stand destroys Jishnu's; it's not even close enough to be worth debating... If you don't have a gun, THEN JR is next up, but why would you not have a gun when Armageddon is easier to upgrade than Gandiva? Second of all, Armageddon will outperform Gandiva by a huge margin, not because of WF spam (lol), but because of Last Stand. Most people assume Annihilator is the king of RNG weapons, which I agree with under most circumstances, but Armageddon is right up there with it. I have both @99 now and the difference between them is pretty minor. Of course, coronach is really what makes Annihilator invaluable.

    Thirdly, as a more general comment, don't play RNG if you're not willing to spend the gil to play it well. If you're just upgrading a bow because you think it's cheaper then you might as well upgrade something for a different job that's actually useful.
    Ahh you might not realize that all archery WS's copy fTP, not just the new ones.

    http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Jishnu%27s_Radiance
    1.75 fTP, per hit, not 1.75 + 2.0. 1.95 with Gorget / Belt for a total of 5.85 fTP (technically 5.83). 60% DEX mod and crits (for whatever that's worth)

    LS 2.0 fTP per hit, 2.2 with belt / gorget, 4.4 total. 100% AGI mod.

    JR has 32.9% more fTP, LS has 66% higher WSC. Once you account for base DMG / Ammo and ranged fSTR they become damn near dead even with Gandiva being ahead due to crits on heavier NMs. If our shooting at 300 TP then LS moves ahead of JR due to it's fTP scaling vs JR's crit rate increase. JR's critical hits become more important as your targets defense goes up and your no longer capping ratio at 3.0. The question becomes, what are you trying to kill. Weak stuff, then use LS, harder stuff or situations your not super buffed then Gandiva. Too bad Dead Aim doesn't work on WS's.

    WF is in it's own special category, 5.5 fTP with a 101 base DMG (lv+2) is amazing for a magic WS. You can then stack on HQ staves for a direct damage increase and higher magic accuracy.

    Though I agree that nobody should be playing RNG or COR if their cheap. Their both jobs that are literally shooting gil at monsters.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  9. #19
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Character
    Byrth
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    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Crits are much less important for ranged attacks than melee hits, only increasing pDIF by 25%. Also, the effect isn't capped so ranged critical hits represent the same % increase in damage regardless what your cRatio is.

    You can probably call Last Stand 4.5 fTP as well, because of the TP Bonus Moonshade. So it's more like 1.3x fTP and some crits (damage +25%) vs. 1.66x Mod. Factor in that DEX is probably less convenient to whore than AGI, gun/bullet's higher base damage to start with, and you see why people like Last Stand.
    Gandiva + Garg = 117 + 51 = 168
    Anni + Adaman = 76 + 127 = 203

    fSTR caps higher with Gandiva, but not 35 points higher.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    Crits are much less important for ranged attacks than melee hits, only increasing pDIF by 25%. Also, the effect isn't capped so ranged critical hits represent the same % increase in damage regardless what your cRatio is.

    You can probably call Last Stand 4.5 fTP as well, because of the TP Bonus Moonshade. So it's more like 1.3x fTP and some crits (damage +25%) vs. 1.66x Mod. Factor in that DEX is probably less convenient to whore than AGI, gun/bullet's higher base damage to start with, and you see why people like Last Stand.
    Gandiva + Garg = 117 + 51 = 168
    Anni + Adaman = 76 + 127 = 203

    fSTR caps higher with Gandiva, but not 35 points higher.
    Hence why I said their almost dead even.

    And Crits are worth more when your ration is lower, thus my comment on harder NMs or when the RNG isn't getting BRD / COR buffs. Adding 1.0 to 2.0 is a larger increase then adding it to 3.0. I fully expect Armageddon to have a higher WD. And your not going to be capping fSTR outside of abysesa so that's effectively equal between the two of them. Going to low ball it and say +20 fSTR2 on both of them.

    188 vs 223. How much DEX / AGI can a RNG expect to acquire for WS? I'm assuming ~170~200 (going to use 180 from by 5th point of contact).
    180 * .85 = 153 vs 91.
    376 vs 279 or 34.7% higher base DMG for Last Stand. 32.9% higher fTP on JR. Pretty much dead even if absolutely no crits happen. Its the crits that determine everything.

    I do have one question, due to how ranged damage is calculated differently, is dDex still the determiner for crit rate? I always assumed it was.

    You wouldn't discount Ukko's crits when comparing it to Upheaval, you shouldn't discount JR's crits.

    -=edit=-

    After looking over more math / info I would revise my earlier statement. Last Stand = JR as far as average WS damage. JR will have higher spikes but it can also miss hits a bit more often (85.7% chance to land all three) vs LS (90.25% to land both) and it's possibly to have a WS without any crits, then have a WS with all three hits criting.

    If the choice is between Anni and Gandiva, get an Anni no questions asked. Having access to WF opens it's own set of options, including doing damage to things that you normally couldn't damage worth a damn.
    (0)
    Last edited by saevel; 06-04-2012 at 06:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

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