[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Byrth]

Harharharharharharhar you dummies. They're patching Sange because Shihei is obviously the reason people don't use it.

[Helel]

I hope you can accidentally throw away the relic shuriken (without unlimited shot).

[vixin]

I hope you can accidentally throw away the relic shuriken (without unlimited shot).

Unlimited shot does not workk for throwing... im sure if they had us invest in all that time to make a weapon it would be unlimited ammo or a despenser like idea rfom conquest points arrow's.

[wish12oz]

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Camate, I'm going to type something complex here, please try to understand it and then show it to the DEVs.

Let's compare the damage output of shurikens and katanas. Your "relic shuriken" would have 146 damage, and 193 delay, and you're all struggling to not include this in the game, as you think it would be "overpowered." My statement to you is, even at these stats, this shuriken would not be worth using.

Damage is calculated as (Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF

We find weapon rank cap by dividing the base damage by 9, so 146/9=16, 16 is our weapon rank, weapon rank+8 is the fSTR cap, 16+8=24.

So now we have our max fSTR available, and we know the ranged pDIF cap is 3, so lets swing things entirely into the shurikens favor and say both of these values are capped.
(Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF
or
(146+24)*3=510
So every time you throw this shuriken you do an average of 510 damage.

To figure out TP gain, rather than do a bunch of math, I put on my normal NIN TP set, and went out and bought a stack of 193 delay shurikens from the tenshodo NPC, then hit 10 tiny mandragoras with them, this gave me 55 TP, so the shurikens were giving me 5.5 tp/hit. I then repeated this with my katanas, and gained 4.5tp/hit with them.


Standard NIN TP set, except maybe for the katanas, but these are the best Katanas available to most people, a Lv. 99 Magian and a Lv. 90 Kannagi.
AF3+2 hat, Rancor Collar, Suppanomimi, Brutal earring
Thaumas Coat, AF2+2 hands, Eponas ring, Rajas ring
Atheling mantle, Twilight belt, AF2+2 pants, AF3+2 shoes.

Now for delay, normally when counting ranged attack delay, the delay on the ranged weapon is the time it takes to fire, and the delay on the ammo is the time before you can shoot again, since shurikens are ammo only, I had to do a bit of testing and found that the 193 delay on the shurikens counts as the weapon delay, and there is no extra delay between attacks added. Now how does a ranged attack actually work?
From the wiki:
Ranged delay is about twice as fast as melee delay : 110 delay = 1 second
Ranged weapon delay is the only variable affecting the total delay.
Ranged attack delay is divided into 3 phases :
1. Pulling out ranged weapon, aiming, and shooting : this time span is calculated by : Weapon Delay / 110. A successful Rapid Shot activation reduces the aiming time (the time between pulling back the string and actual firing of the shot) to 0.
2. After shooting → putting back ranged weapon : This delay usually takes 1.7 second to 1.8 second. However, occasionally, it can take fluctuate from 1.6 second to 1.9 second
3. "Free" phase : at this time span, melee timer is un-paused. The minimum time this delay can have is 1.1 second

So the delay between shot of ranged weapon is :
Delay = (Weapon Delay/110)s + 1.7s~1.8s + 1.1s

So for ranged attack delay, it will be
(192/110)+1.75+1.1=4.59

So the totals for this 'supposedly' super awesome relic shuriken given capped fSTR and pDIF are 510 damage and 5.5 tp every 4.59 seconds.

Now lets look at those Katanas.
Since one has 55 damage, and one 50, we'll use 52.5 as the base damage, and we'll also ignore aftermath hits, which only work on Kannagi itself, not the offhand, and not the shurikens just to continue to push things in throwings favor whenever we can. Meele pDIF caps at 2, and we'll assume your ranged attack gear has like 200 STR in it and your melee set doesn't have any and your fSTR is 0. So to determine average base damage per hit its back to the formula of
(Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF
or
(52.5+0)*2=105
So every swing we do with our katanas is going to average 105 damage.

Now lets factor in Double attack, Triple attack, Quadruple attack
10% DA from /war, 5% from Brutal earring, 2% from Twilight belt, 3% from Atheling mantle, 3% from Thaumas coat, 3% from Eponas ring, 3% TA from Eponas, 3% from Thamus coat, and 3% QA from Thaumas coat.
Total is 3% QA, 6% TA, 26% DA

To account for this, you have to know the stacking order, which is biggest to smallest. In 100 attacks, the QA would fire on 3 of them, leaving 97 attacks TA could fire on, which would give 5.82 TAs, and then leaving 91.18 attacks DA could fire on giving you 23.7 DAs. So you would take these numbers and multiple them by whatever the extra values are on the extra attacks rounds, for the 3% QA you get, you multiple 3*3, for the 5.82 TAs you multiply by 2, for the 23.7% DAs you get you multiply by 1.
((3*3)+(2*5.82)+(1*23.7)/100)= #of extra attacks you get per hit.
((9+11.64+23.7)/100)
(44.34/100)
0.44

We determined you get 2 attacks per attack round with Katanas, since you're dual wielding, and each attack is actually 1.44 attacks, so you get 2.88 attacks per round with Katanas, at 105 damage/hit average, this is (2.88*105) 302.4 damage/round, and tp gain is 4.5 tp/hit, so it's (4.5*2.88)=12.96 tp/round.

Now to factor in time, how much time it takes to make those hits.
I'm not going to break the haste down into its exact amounts and explain it, I'm simply going to tell you 25% gear haste is 24.7%~ haste and tell you the haste spell is 14.6%~ haste, and use those values.
39.3 Haste Total.
Dual wield: 35% DW on traits, 5% earring, 5% hat, 7% pants.
52% DW Total.

The actual delay on the katanas is 210 and 201, add these together to get the delay per attack round, 411. Now to factor in haste and DW.
411*.607=249.4 (delay after haste)
249.4*.48=119.7
This tells us that our real delay between attack rounds with katanas is 119.7. Knowing that just under 59 delay for melee weapons = 1 second real time, we can determine the amount of real time this comes to. 119.7/59=2.02 seconds per attack round with katanas.

So now we know the katanas do 302 damage, and gain 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds. To compare this to the shuriken we're going to make the time match. 4.59 seconds was the shuriken time, 4.59/2.02=2.27222772277227722, we'll drop this to 2.27 to continue with our trend of pushing everything into throwing favor. So now, if we multiple every value the Katanas have by 2.72, we get the numbers they would put up in the time 1 throw would take.
302*2.27=685.54
12.96*2.27=29.4

Now we can compare the damage and tp gain of this "super amazing relic shuriken" to some run of the mill Katanas.
Katanas do 685.54 damage and gain 29.4 TP in the time it takes you to do 1 throw with the relic shuriken, which does 510 damage and gains 5.5 tp.

If we factor TP into WS damage, we can determine damage from TP and add that to the melee damage to get the total damage. If your average WS does 1500 damage, which is kinda low for Blade:Hi with capped crit rate and pDIF, we can determine damage gained from TP. 29.4% of 1500 is 441, 5.5% of 1500 is 82.5.
441+685.4=1126.4
82.5+510=620=592.5

Conclusion:
In the time it takes to commit 1 throw with the "super amazing Relic shuriken" you do 592 damage actually throwing it, and 1126 damage if you swing some gimp katanas.

Your "overpowered Relic shuriken" under the best possible circumstances, does half as much damage as some gimp katanas under normal circumstances.

Question:
Why does the DEV team waste their time with this crap? Do they not understand the basic fundementals of their game and how it works or what? Tell them to add a shuriken with 350 base damage, and 193 delay if they want it to match gimp katana damage output, 400 base damage if they want it to match GOOD katana output, and 450 base damage if they want it to be worth using and wasting tons of space for a throwing gear set. And if this stuff is consumable, it better be very, very cheap to make, and stack to 999 via quivers or whatever, or it's still not going to be worth the time or effort to use.

And lastly: they can take their 146 damage shuriken and delete it, it's not worth anything.

[Seiowan]

I noticed how there wasn't a mention of increasing stack sizes for shurikens. Wouldn't it be better all around if ammunition (ALL ammunition) was just set in stacks of 99 so players can actually carry a decent amount around without needing to flood half their inventory with them?

It would also help if these things didn't require lengthy quests or fights just to obtain a single shuriken (Give us a stack of them at the very least!)

[Washburn]

Unlimited shot does not workk for throwing... im sure if they had us invest in all that time to make a weapon it would be unlimited ammo or a despenser like idea rfom conquest points arrow's.

Zephyr, East Wind, Arctic Wind, Antarctic Wind, Stygian Ash.


...and @ wish12oz...
If they did that they'd need to add throwing Weapon Skills, which would most likely require a THF to be behind the mob so you can call a pitch (fastball, slider, knuckleball etc.)

[wish12oz]

...and @ wish12oz...
If they did that they'd need to add throwing Weapon Skills, which would most likely require a THF to be behind the mob so you can call a pitch (fastball, slider, knuckleball etc.)

They NEED to do what I said to make throwing useful, adding throwing WS's won't make throwing useful unless there is a high base damage shuriken that is cheap/easy to get and a good WS that is worth using over Blade:Hi/Shun. Even then though, you wont throw shurikens for TP unless you're half retarded. Adding a new throwing WS that is better than Hi or Shun creates its own problems as well, and SE already said multiple times they cannot add throwing WS's anyway so who cares about them.

EDIT:::
The point of my previous post was to show that gimp katanas under bad circumstances do twice as much damage as their "relic" shuriken would under the best possible circumstances, and I succeeded, because throwing is trash.

[vixin]

[QUOTE=wish12oz;309456]They NEED to do what I said to make throwing useful, adding throwing WS's won't make throwing useful unless there is a high base damage shuriken that is cheap/easy to get and a good WS that is worth using over Blade:Hi/Shun.

Since where were nice ws "cheap" and "easy" to obtain? Anything worth getting in this game usually rquires times and effort im sure you would agree, as for level of difficulty that ranges from person to person. last i checked was they said it was impossible to add a shuriken with that amount of base dmg and "IF" notice the key word "IF", it was impleated it would be a relic shuriken. long story short dont get worked up on something that was not confirmed.

[wish12oz]

last i checked was they said it was impossible to add a shuriken with that amount of base dmg and "IF" notice the key word "IF", it was impleated it would be a relic shuriken. long story short dont get worked up on something that was not confirmed.

Last I checked, a 146 damage shuriken was trash and shouldn't be added to the game so the DEVs can spend their time doing useful stuff, and that was about an hour ago. Long story short, adding useless stuff is a waste of time, and takes people away from doing useful things. So I think we should tell the DEVs why it's useless since they seem to think it would be overpowered and amazing. Apparently you seem to think this too, but hey guess what, 350 damage is the real low end number a shuriken needs to have to be useful, of course I'm going to run into a thread where they said 146 is amazing and overpowered and yell at them for being dumb.

[Helel]

Unlimited shot does not workk for throwing... im sure if they had us invest in all that time to make a weapon it would be unlimited ammo or a despenser like idea rfom conquest points arrow's.

Yes it does lol... and no **** on the 2nd statement.

Who is this guy?