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  1. #11
    Player Kitkat's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    436
    Character
    Kaliyah
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I would think that any blu already knows that even with the scaling of the cure spells and buffs we have it doesn't come close to making the job a suitable main healer replacement, but it also doesn't mean they absolutely shouldn't cure/try to help if the situation calls for it. By that I mean instances where temp items aren't raining from the sky, you're not in abyssea with an endless supply of mp for whm, instance battles such as legion or "shit hits the fan" fight. I have had at least the common sense to help with curing in those situations, but as stated it was limited to only those in my PT.

    The way the OP said what they did, and the consensus I'm gleaning from additional responses, is more so "What is the reason for not allowing it/limiting it" not "I want to be main healer and dammit SE won't let me cause all my shit is self cast or party cast only."

    Only reason why I even mentioned /rdm is because it is used for cleaving. I would think anyone with half a brain would use /rdm for cleaving also given the traits/buffs it gives to make cleaving easier. Didn't bring it up cause I fill in as a healer or have some delusion that I am a healer with it.
    (1)
    Last edited by Kitkat; 03-30-2012 at 07:52 AM.

  2. #12
    Player Scuro's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    348
    Character
    Scuro
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro View Post
    BLU has never had a non Party spell, or even an alliance party, therefore, it shouldn't be capable of healing outside of party. Not to mention its not necessary and entirely pointless. This very limitation is what assures our ability to be a frontline job rather than becoming a back lined RDM. So don't curse your blessings dammit!
    As I stated before, this is why we don't main cure or have the ability, and this is why our cures remain party focused only. SE knows better from its failure at making RDM a true frontline DD that if you give a class adequate support abilities, it will become, back lined. The point of our restrictions is to force us to be a front line. People call this a limitation, but I call it a blessing, I would never want to be brought into an LS or a party for that matter to be a back lined healing BLU... And I imagine you all would feel the same, and if you don't. As I said before.... your playing it wrong, and your playing the wrong class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro View Post
    2. At the very MOST you should be throwing out an emergency cure once or twice a big fight. If your doing it more, your mages are shit. Which again, is why the limitation on our healing capabilities really isn't a big deal because we don't heal as much as other classes.
    I agreed with you already Kitkat, I'm not saying a BLU should never cure, I'm saying if your curing outside of emergency means, your party sucks and you should leave it. And if your LS depends on you to cure, your LS sucks, and I suggest you leave it. Pretty much, anytime a BLU has to cure more than once or twice (again emergency means), your group is horrible, and doing it wrong, and most likely your healer doesn't know what they are doing, or isn't using STAL command to flip between characters and is loosing target because of macros (which before anyone says it, mages it is your fault if your loosing target, don't blame your party for doing their job just because your too much of a lazy ba*stard to type up a macro and hit ctrl or alt # to use it...).
    (0)
    Last edited by Scuro; 03-30-2012 at 10:17 AM.

    99 BLU,PLD,SCH,RNG,NIN,BST,SMN,THF,BLM,WHM... Any questions..?

  3. #13
    Player Danterius's Avatar
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    Mar 2012
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    4
    Character
    Danterius
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro View Post
    The point of our restrictions is to force us to be a front line. People call this a limitation, but I call it a blessing, I would never want to be brought into an LS or a party for that matter to be a back lined healing BLU... And I imagine you all would feel the same, and if you don't. As I said before.... your playing it wrong, and your playing the wrong class.
    Sorry Scuro, but to me, you've entirely missed the point of blu. It's not meant to be a "dd only!" job. It's designed to be as adaptable as possible, depending on how you want to play. Take a look at the whole spell list, there's plenty that allow for varying types of blu (eg: healer, tank, dd, nuker).

    Granted you mostly see dd blu's, I myself am geared toward front-line dd capabilities, but the idea is that if you don't want to be a dd blu, there's other options. Have a look around and you'll find some blu's quite capably tanking and/or nuking. It's not like a rdm, that was designed as a mid range dd/support/healer, it's designed to excel in whatever focus/discipline you choose.

    My point out of all of this is; no, you don't have to be a healer if you had the ability to be, and yes you should be annoyed if the ls/party tries to pigeon-hole a blu, but taking away our option to choose is not the right way to do it. I'm not saying your way is wrong, it's one of the MANY options blu should have. There is no SINGLE way that blu should be played.
    (4)

  4. #14
    Player Fyreus's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    182
    Character
    Fyreus
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 98
    While i hate to admit it.. Scuro is right. Having played rdm from the early NA days up until 60 around our first summer i found it to suck because of the change in play style demanded by the players AND SE (due to mob tp). While i'd love to heal outside my party, i feel as though all those blu i've seen standing in back doing random stuff during their first few months in game confirmed a fear i had when i decided to change jobs.

    The other alternative is to waltz non pt members. We get quite a bit of waltz help and that should be enough unless you are able to pull + maintain hate and save their bacon. Now that i think about it... i hate that i can't buff my alliance :/ we're so greedy with spells!
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player Kitkat's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    436
    Character
    Kaliyah
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Thing is, whether or not SE changed it, fact remains that blu still won't fill the role. Unlike Whm, our cures generate a ton of enmity in comparison and there are other limiting factors in play also. Some spells are AOE of the caster, forces the blu to be up in the thick of it anyway.

    Just seems you have this stigma that the change will force blu into a spot it doesn't fit.That is the main reason I responded to you Scuro. You're taking an inch and stretching it a mile in the 'consequences of change' department. Even with /whm, /sch, /rdm sub blu can't really hold a candle to either of the actual mages tasked with healing and support healing. The build of the spells don't really allow for it and better suit the blu up in the front line anyway.

    To touch on the rdm comment, I played since NA release and started as rdm. There wasn't really a major shift in how rdm was utilized until TP burns were found to be the easiest way to gain merits. It eliminated slow killing style of the old SC setup+mb and only became really used pre-70 after ToaU was released. This was mainly due to mobs being made squishier while more resistant to SC damage anyway. Either that or post 60 the mob of choice reflected the spell making the use of SC+MB even more outclassed by simple TP burn setups. Due to the fact whm required some sort of refresher to maintain useful compared to a rdm+brd or cor, they were simply not needed. Mobs died fast, barely any damage was needed to be healed in large amounts so rdm became ideal for healing.

    With how SE is keeping the high damage attacks going, I honestly don't see rdm ever filling that gap again, let alone a blu.
    (0)
    Last edited by Kitkat; 03-30-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  6. #16
    Player Scuro's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    348
    Character
    Scuro
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Danterius View Post
    Sorry Scuro, but to me, you've entirely missed the point of blu. It's not meant to be a "dd only!" job. It's designed to be as adaptable as possible, depending on how you want to play. Take a look at the whole spell list, there's plenty that allow for varying types of blu (eg: healer, tank, dd, nuker).

    ... It's not like a rdm, that was designed as a mid range dd/support/healer, it's designed to excel in whatever focus/discipline you choose.
    See this is how i felt about BLU when I was starting and I had hit 75 and before Abyssea, but with the dawn of new things, I became an elitist and I would still be today if I still played the game which I have stopped playing for now until vanafest. I've yet to break 99 not because I can't, but because I see no reason to other than to do VNMS for eternity until I quit the game entirely. Yet I digress, I believed this job was capable of so much and that it could be played in any way as long as the player willed it. But the realistic thing is, jobs do things better, because they do it better they are the better selection, and because they are the better selection, means your options are limited. Unless your solo'n (in which case you can do w/e) or your in a static that focuses on the "having fun" part of the game rather than focusing on achieving great things, you are natively limited to the simple roles of DD whether that be physical or magical nuker. The bottom line is, its what we do well, not great, but we can be competitive. In all other fields, buffing, debuffing, healing, tanking, we are mediocre options (varying based on mob) I know Tashan will jump in and say BLU's can tank like a boss, because thats what he's put his mind to. But thats tash for ya lol and even than he knows better than to tank the world on his BLU.

    Simply put, it isn't so much our actual effectiveness we have to worry about that makes us in the positions we can assume, it is the community. We are not a healer because the community through means of logic has deemed us unfit. Even if we were able to cure, we wouldn't compete therefore we wouldn't do it. Sure it would become an option,but a terrible one at that, to a point where you might as well have the BRD/WHM cure. You've stated I should look at the spell list, too which I fully understand the versatility and was a quality I truly admired of the job. You will also notice that not a single spell transcends the party boundary nor should it. Do we really wanna go to parties like DNCs who were so tremendously useless and have to pop off curing waltzes using TP gain atmas and gear because not many LS's let DNCs actually TP on a mob? Hell no! Thats not at all what I want this job to be, or a RDM whoring out cures (which even now it doesn't do that when SCH can do it better, and WHM pretty much dominates the two). While I understand your desire for this because I mean what BLU wouldn't love SE saying "Hey you can heal out of parties now!" or "Hey that whole timer for your spells when you swap them, f*ck that!" or "Hey you know how you can only use so many spells? PFFFTTT!! GET OUTA HERE!" I mean what BLU in their right mind wouldn't be like "FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU YAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!" Yet that would also break game balance and mechanic, because we are so good at many things, why do we deserve the god mode button to be great at many things? Than what would be the point of other jobs that are so closely related to the tasks we desire to operate under?

    Hell why don't we make every job in the game lead to BLU so this way if you want to be a tank, healer, DD, nuker, as long as you have the jobs leveled, when you play BLU you can play just like those respective jobs!? I'm not saying no to what you are asking for because I truly hate the idea, I'm saying no because I respect the other job classes out there that would have to compete with us and become void after us becoming a god. I'm saying no because it breaks game balance (what little game balance is left for elitists to even respect after Abyssea...).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kitkat View Post
    Just seems you have this stigma that the change will force blu into a spot it doesn't fit.That is the main reason I responded to you Scuro. You're taking an inch and stretching it a mile in the 'consequences of change' department. Even with /whm, /sch, /rdm sub blu can't really hold a candle to either of the actual mages tasked with healing and support healing. The build of the spells don't really allow for it and better suit the blu up in the front line anyway.
    I do not have a stigma for change, I full well support it, I just support it within the reason that benefits BLU, it its something neat for a niche group of vanadiel, its not worth the time supporting vs something that will support the greater good to which I have lended a hand to in discussion for improvement. This suggestion of curing outside party members ranks up there with no cool down timers after switching spells, and a JA that allows us to use all of our spells. These notions are either game breaking, defeat the notion of what BLU is, support a niche group, or are misguided in basic understandings of fundamental BLU mechanics.

    The reason why subs of a BLU don't' make us back line is because BLU already can't compete with other healing jobs in healing, therefore, subbing healing jobs that get up to at most Cure IV (which ask any SCH P.S I'm a SCH, and RDM whether that means anything and they will tell you hell no and when do they get Cure V so they can actually start competing with WHM for healing positions). And as you stated we generate more enmity, so of course sub or not, we are not a healing class, we can save someone's ass, but thats it. If BLU were ever efficient enough to compete with WHM, this game would be broken and SCH and RDM would be pissed, if BLU were ever efficient enough to compete with SCH and RDM, SCH and RDM would be pissed because they are already on the shitlist for curing in groups, to only be one upped by a job that can do exactly what they do and do more, would shut out those jobs entirely (and trust me, we don't' want to give RDM's more ammo to bitch about because I still can't read a RDM thread with out hearing how DD RDM is coming! and how awesome those days will be for vanadiel!!!..... Ya... No). The fact of the matter is, we can cure just fine actually even better than fine, we cure good. We cure so good we are great for backing up when the shit hits the fan, which is great! Why should our responsibilities grow further in curing allies when we should already have more efficient jobs for that? Is being an emergency cure not good enough? And sorry but even though I'm in an ally group, if someone dies in the other party and I'm not on my SCH healing, I could give a shit less because A. Thats their fault, B. Thats their healer's fault, because if it was my job to cure em, I should of been in their party.
    (0)
    Last edited by Scuro; 03-30-2012 at 12:42 PM.

    99 BLU,PLD,SCH,RNG,NIN,BST,SMN,THF,BLM,WHM... Any questions..?

  7. #17
    Player Fyreus's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    182
    Character
    Fyreus
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 98
    I remember when i used to go blu/dnc with tp/mp/?? atmas and drop a waltz+m.fruit combo on players for 860+ healed and thought it was kinda broken especially in a small pt but i can't complain since they've bumped our healing potential to the 1k range.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player Kitkat's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    436
    Character
    Kaliyah
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    ~sighs~ To show the 'inch to a mile' of your argument I bring up the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro View Post
    Healing outside of Party = Not BLU, thats WHM SCH or RDM (if you even call those healing classes anymore cuz we all know its WHM or go home)

    BLU has never had a non Party spell, or even an alliance party, therefore, it shouldn't be capable of healing outside of party. Not to mention its not necessary and entirely pointless. This very limitation is what assures our ability to be a frontline job rather than becoming a back lined RDM. So don't curse your blessings dammit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro View Post
    For starts... why the f*ck would you want to be a healer with a BLU to begin with... if thats your goal, your doing it wrong, and go play a class that actually heals properly... AKA WHM.
    This shows you have a stigma against this change in particular, never said all changes. You keep bringing up "other mage this" and "other mages that" when it doesn't really have anything to do with them. As said prior, it isn't the goal of the OP to make blu a healer class, just to understand the limitation given the adaptive nature of the job. Other mages have the same issue blu does with healing given the spells they are limited to, and depending on fight whm is more than just cures (status heal, procs, buffs). For the record, any other job able to heal, even in limited amounts, can say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro
    That's their healer's fault, because if it was my job to cure em, I should of been in their party.
    even the blu who don't think it is their job to help heal at all, ever, because they are "onry DD."

    Touching on the game balance aspect, you're once again taking an inch and going a mile. Bringing points that are obviously unbalanced does not support your cause, just sort of makes you look like you're a raving lunatic or doomsday sayer. Changing 1 or 2 spells that can target other players isn't going to somehow make blu a demigod of healing. It'll only give them the ability to save joe blow, if not doing something else, by tossing a fruit or moon-beam their way. It is akin to any other mage dropping a life line to someone outside their pt just to help the overall group. Just a helping hand, nothing more. Similar to how blu is for their party at the moment, a helping hand to keep joe blow vertical for a bit longer.

    I may not be a Sch, but I am a rdm and I have been a whm in the past. I never felt my rdm was better at healing than my whm, but it had better sustainability than whm. Now whm has what rdm did to be sustainable by subbing /rdm and a great deal more refresh items. If by chance SE didn't allow the use of convert or refresh when subbed than it would still be in a position where it had to rely on others outside of abyssea to maintain longevity. Sch had that going for them from the start with sublimation, granted it is more of a mini convert, but it still instantaneously restored some mp in exchange for HP drain charge up.

    To clarify, this is the inch of the OP: Let us use Fruit and Embrace on others outside of pt.

    This is the mile you're arguing: Change our spells to a point that we can put those rdm and sch out of business by showing them what a real back up healer is. Hell, might even give whm a run for its money.
    (3)
    Last edited by Kitkat; 03-30-2012 at 11:13 PM.

  9. #19
    Player Scuro's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    348
    Character
    Scuro
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I don't see how your arguing against my point at all, because I dont think you get at all what I'm saying. So I'm tapping out until different feedback comes out, or just the topic dies as it most likely will. Not that SE even considers this shit anyway for BLU adjustments so meh.
    (0)
    Last edited by Scuro; 03-31-2012 at 12:44 AM.

    99 BLU,PLD,SCH,RNG,NIN,BST,SMN,THF,BLM,WHM... Any questions..?

  10. #20
    Player Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    658
    Character
    Duelle
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitkat View Post
    This shows you have a stigma against this change in particular, never said all changes. You keep bringing up "other mage this" and "other mages that" when it doesn't really have anything to do with them. As said prior, it isn't the goal of the OP to make blu a healer class, just to understand the limitation given the adaptive nature of the job.
    Considering this is the guy that was goading people in the RDM melee and Temper threads over how we should be supporting and healing (him) instead of arguing for melee buffs, of course the guy has a stigma against healing. He's probably afraid of getting a spot right next to me when the group needs healers. You know, the dreaded "Hey, Scuro, we're short on healers, so sub WHM and bring your healing potency gear and light staff if you still want to come on BLU". I agree though that with damage being the way it is, it is unlikely to happen between enmity and amount of damage cured. Still a nice thought, though.
    Touching on the game balance aspect, you're once again taking an inch and going a mile. Bringing points that are obviously unbalanced does not support your cause, just sort of makes you look like you're a raving lunatic or doomsday sayer. Changing 1 or 2 spells that can target other players isn't going to somehow make blu a demigod of healing.
    In his defense, it makes healing convenient. When healing becomes convenient, it has a tendency of becoming the norm, specially when healing is in short supply (as is the case in this game due to having one real healer archetype job). FFXI is victim to trends, so while I wouldn't call it gloom and doom, slight concern is warranted, IMO. Though personally, I've yet to meet a BLU that doesn't set fruit/embrace/winds or does not use them if they do. I've been hit with fruits while on DRK so much that I'd probably be surprised to see a BLU that doesn't use it.
    (3)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

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