Voidwatch Final Chapter

[Afania]

No .. just no.

Both BLU's go into the mage pt with the 2 BLMs and Ninja. That leaves two slots for RNG / whatever you toss into it.

DD parties are

BRD
WHM
COR
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)

Try to have a DRK in each DD PT for enhanced chaos roll, otherwise try to have at least one of each of those jobs with RNG being a toss up depending on where your slots are and if their good or not.

Do you even understand what I'm talking about - -?

You only have 18 spot, when you take 2 BLU you're going to use less 2h DD because that extra BLU is taking up extra spot. Using 1 BLU gets extra spot so you can toss another DD job, or a PLD to hold NM in case proc is bad. That's what I really mean. Mage pt or not, your spot is limited.

Majority of time if proc is bad, it's usually not because of BLU proc just saying. And you only need 1~2 proc if dmg is good anyways.

[saevel]

Do you even understand what I'm talking about - -?

You only have 18 spot, when you take 2 BLU you're going to use less 2h DD because that extra BLU is taking up extra spot. Using 1 BLU gets extra spot so you can toss another DD job, or a PLD to hold NM in case proc is bad. That's what I really mean. Mage pt or not, your spot is limited.

Majority of time if proc is bad, it's usually not because of BLU proc just saying. And you only need 1~2 proc if dmg is good anyways.

You have a learning disorder don't you? It's ok I'm not judging, just means I gotta go over this slowly.

You have three parties, two are dedicated to your melee DD damage, mostly 2H's. The third party is dedicated to BLMs and other "proc" jobs that are not getting super buffed. BLU's go into this third party, along with NIN's, THF's, SMN's and possibly RNG's. You have six slots in this party, two of which will be filled by BLMs. None of these spots will be filled by a DD as they'll just end up getting killed and contribute pitiful damage without those double BRD + COR buffs.

BLM
BLM
NIN
spot
spot
spot

That leaves three empty slots, one of which is traditionally a BLU.

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
spot
spot

The last two are usually filled with THF / RNG / SMN or whatever else you can pickup from /sh's. You can also put in a third BLM or a RDM / SCH for faster magic procs. This reasoning works for BLU's, put in another BLU and you get faster magic procs, neither BLU is expected to deal anywhere near the damage of the DD's (though they should still be trying to contribute something).

This gets you

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
BLU
spot

That last spot is for a RNG (if their not in the DD party) SCH or whatever else you can find for it.

I hope this illustrates how a BLU, will never be competing with "2H DD" for melee spots. Bringing 2 BLU's does not reduce your damage in the slightest, unless possibly on Rex / Bismark where you need lots of magic damage and thus a third BLM / SCH or additional WF COR.

Total alliance makeup looks something like.

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
WAR
SAM

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
MNK
DRG

BLM
BLM
BLU
BLU
NIN
RNG (or anything else)

[Afania]

You have a learning disorder don't you? It's ok I'm not judging, just means I gotta go over this slowly.

You have three parties, two are dedicated to your melee DD damage, mostly 2H's. The third party is dedicated to BLMs and other "proc" jobs that are not getting super buffed. BLU's go into this third party, along with NIN's, THF's, SMN's and possibly RNG's. You have six slots in this party, two of which will be filled by BLMs. None of these spots will be filled by a DD as they'll just end up getting killed and contribute pitiful damage without those double BRD + COR buffs.

BLM
BLM
NIN
spot
spot
spot

That leaves three empty slots, one of which is traditionally a BLU.

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
spot
spot

The last two are usually filled with THF / RNG / SMN or whatever else you can pickup from /sh's. You can also put in a third BLM or a RDM / SCH for faster magic procs. This reasoning works for BLU's, put in another BLU and you get faster magic procs, neither BLU is expected to deal anywhere near the damage of the DD's (though they should still be trying to contribute something).

This gets you

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
BLU
spot

That last spot is for a RNG (if their not in the DD party) SCH or whatever else you can find for it.

I hope this illustrates how a BLU, will never be competing with "2H DD" for melee spots. Bringing 2 BLU's does not reduce your damage in the slightest, unless possibly on Rex / Bismark where you need lots of magic damage and thus a third BLM / SCH or additional WF COR.

Total alliance makeup looks something like.

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
WAR
SAM

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
MNK
DRG

BLM
BLM
BLU
BLU
NIN
RNG (or anything else)

There's no need to put WHM in same pt as DD pt, you're the one who doesn't get it. WHM can go to mage pt and fit in extra DD in DD pt, I've yet to encounter any WHM have problem healing DDs outside of DD pt. 3x DD in DD pt always kills faster than 4x DD in DD pt, NM will be dead before you know it.

Or just toss DRG to mage pt and fit in another 2h DD, unless that DRG is mythic DRG it's dmg isn't going to be compareable to DRK WAR MNK SAM.

2x BLU is just making pt kill slower, especially on higher tier VW, it's fact.

Also you completely underestimate BLU's dmg difference between playing aggressively(set DD job trait) and sit back and proc whore(fill entire spell list with nothing but proc spells) on T3 VW. I'm not saying it will beat a properly geared WAR MNK DRK SAM, doesn't mean you should just sit back and proc whore and not contributing. I beat many random pick up WAR MNK DRK SAM on BLU without COR and BRD buff many times, having 2 BLU set nothing but proc spell just gimp entire ally's dmg, period. Only worth it on weaker VW if your ally is full of elite DDs and killing speed isn't an issue.

In fact for provenance run I tend to only use 1 WHM in entire ally and sometimes even 1 empy BRD if there's embrava mule to sqeeze out extra DD spot.

[Demon6324236]

Last I knew you couldn't curaga people in other partys, which means sleepga sucks for your DDs. High end VW needs constant procs, I would rather kill slower and have my extra BLU incase there is a proc for it so I can keep the NM proced and it doesn't rape my party.

[Afania]

Last I knew you couldn't curaga people in other partys, which means sleepga sucks for your DDs. High end VW needs constant procs, I would rather kill slower and have my extra BLU incase there is a proc for it so I can keep the NM proced and it doesn't rape my party.

As far as I know, using healing mist(AOE cure item) can wake everyone up, so you technically only need to wake 1 person up and have him pop temp. Even if you need to wake each person up one by one, the extra DD in DD pt still outweight the benefit of curaga. Not every NM spams AoE sleep, and even if they do AoE sleep they often sleep 1~2 times max each fight, which isn't that terrible.

As for "higher tier VW needs constant procs", you have about 1 min to proc each HQ/EV before temp wear, if you stuck on proc, it's usually not BLU. But if pt kill slower, it has higher chance to wipe or stuck on proc. Kill it faster is the best way to prevent wiping, if the pt can kill VW in 1.5 min~2 min, then you only need 1 proc to win, you don't need "constant procs" at all, you only need 1~2 HQ to recharge temps. Many NA PUG rex/provenance or even T6 pt wipe on my server, the main reason is no other but not enough dmg, and /shout leader tend to focus on filling up every proc, thinking killing slower is ok as long as every NQ HQ EV is proced, but the fact is it's not. Your DDs need to be elite tier DD if you want to bring that many BLU for proc, majority of PUG pt, you just ended up killing slower while both BLU won't contribute much most of the time.

As I previously mentioned, pop NM+ fana, zerg, proc and recharge fana, pop fana again, NM dead. If NM requires more than 2 fana to kill, then you're killing too slow and need more DDs.

[Demon6324236]

As far as I know, using healing mist(AOE cure item) can wake everyone up, so you technically only need to wake 1 person up and have him pop temp. Even if you need to wake each person up one by one, the extra DD in DD pt still outweight the benefit of curaga. Not every NM spams AoE sleep, and even if they do AoE sleep they often sleep 1~2 times max each fight, which isn't that terrible.

As for "higher tier VW needs constant procs", you have about 1 min to proc each HQ/EV before temp wear, if you stuck on proc, it's usually not BLU. But if pt kill slower, it has higher chance to wipe or stuck on proc. Kill it faster is the best way to prevent wiping, if the pt can kill VW in 1.5 min~2 min, then you only need 1 proc to win, you don't need "constant procs" at all, you only need 1~2 HQ to recharge temps. Many NA PUG rex/provenance or even T6 pt wipe on my server, the main reason is no other but not enough dmg, and /shout leader tend to focus on filling up every proc, thinking killing slower is ok as long as every NQ HQ EV is proced, but the fact is it's not. Your DDs need to be elite tier DD if you want to bring that many BLU for proc, majority of PUG pt, you just ended up killing slower while both BLU won't contribute much most of the time.

As I previously mentioned, pop NM+ fana, zerg, proc and recharge fana, pop fana again, NM dead. If NM requires more than 2 fana to kill, then you're killing too slow and need more DDs.

Well apparently every party for Kalasutrax I have ever been in we killed much to slow because only on maybe 3 out of my 30~40 fights with him did we actually kill it in that short of time, and those fights, it was proced 90% of the time, any time I have ever seen it go unproced for more than 30 seconds~a minute or so, party wipes, harpy seemed the same, wouldn't know much though not alot of experience with her.

[Byrth]

It depends very much on how good your players/DDs are. Kala is particularly hard because he dispels everything if you don't keep him proc-locked and takes reduced damage under the same conditions.

[saevel]

Afania has next to zero experience leading VW runs. To even suggest not having a WHM in your primary DD parties... that's like suggesting not doing BRD swaps. Procs are not instant, especially if you get WS procs instead of BLM nuke procs / JA procs, there will be times when the NM isn't proced and spamming their aoes of death and woe. When that happens you absolutely want WHMs for Curaga III~IV spam. NMs light off aoe spells, you want Curaga for that.

6 heavy DD's, double BRD swaps with a COR for each PT and a WHM to keep em alive. That's the standard setup with minor tweaks based on the NM and specific strategy's. Stuff like bringing a SCH for embrava, or extra BLMs for magic damage / stuns. We try to bring a DRK in each PT to give Chaos a 10% boost. At no time does a BLU compete with a heavy DD for a pt slot, BLUs are in the proc party, heavy DD's are in one of the DD parties. Without those double BRD + COR buffs a heavy DD won't be doing sh!t for damage in the BLM party. There is a reason it's called the "mage" or "proc" party.

[saevel]

It depends very much on how good your players/DDs are. Kala is particularly hard because he dispels everything if you don't keep him proc-locked and takes reduced damage under the same conditions.

We found double tomahawks (2 WAR) does amazing for keeping your damage going. The moment the bastard gets off a stance, Hawk him. Once that wears hawk him again (2nd WAR), assuming he's still alive. In a good run you should never have to hawk him more then twice.

[Afania]

Afania has next to zero experience leading VW runs. To even suggest not having a WHM in your primary DD parties... that's like suggesting not doing BRD swaps. Procs are not instant, especially if you get WS procs instead of BLM nuke procs / JA procs, there will be times when the NM isn't proced and spamming their aoes of death and woe. When that happens you absolutely want WHMs for Curaga III~IV spam. NMs light off aoe spells, you want Curaga for that.

6 heavy DD's, double BRD swaps with a COR for each PT and a WHM to keep em alive. That's the standard setup with minor tweaks based on the NM and specific strategy's. Stuff like bringing a SCH for embrava, or extra BLMs for magic damage / stuns. We try to bring a DRK in each PT to give Chaos a 10% boost. At no time does a BLU compete with a heavy DD for a pt slot, BLUs are in the proc party, heavy DD's are in one of the DD parties. Without those double BRD + COR buffs a heavy DD won't be doing sh!t for damage in the BLM party. There is a reason it's called the "mage" or "proc" party.

You're the one who doesn't understand how VW works. Barring some annoying VWNM, majority of time you don't need WHM in DD pt, they can heal just fine outside of DD pt, period. And I'm not the one saying this, several WHM specifically told me they can cure just fine outside of pt, and proved it to me, all you need to do is to set up the priority and have them cure right ppl.
And there are items called fanatic and screens, or holy water/poison powder etc, or the DD you pt with doesn't know how to pop them? Also annoying AoE like Ocythoe move can be stunned if you bring SCH/BLM. Having 1 extra buffed DD in ally greatly outweight the benefit of putting WHM in DD pt since it's not needed and they can cure fine in other pt.

And I NEVER argue about putting BLU in DD pt over 2h melees. I was arguing about having 2 BLU set nothing but proc spell just makes pt kill slower when 1 BLU is enough to get the job done, and doesn't have much benefit on majority of VW unless your pt can kill VW in 1 min. Again, having 1 extra DD in ally greatly outweight the benefit of getting 2 BLU doing nothing except waiting for proc to be called.

And you don't seem to understand what I mean by BRD, if you have embrava, your magic haste is capped. And empy BRD can sing 3~4 songs, so you only need 1 in ally if you rotate pt in provenance, and gets extra spot for another DD for more dmg, is that so hard to understand?

Honestly though, having 1 min BLU spell reset isn't big deal at all, ppl often overestimate the importance of getting proc done ASAP and effectiveness of having 2 BLU in pt for the sake of proc lock, majority of NM you don't need to proc lock, and often less effective to proc without timing, and if you really do need to proc lock, you still have other NQ EV HQ to do, that sacrificing extra slot for lower dmg in ally just makes it less effective.

For example, check out this random Ig-Alima vid on youtube: www.youtube.com/watch?=zAs_YsZALAs

This pt setup isn't the best(pt has 2 PLD, which could be replace with 2 DD), and kinda slowed down the killing speed. The first HQ come in 0:53, 2 more random NQ, then last HQ come in 2:16. If pt has 2 DD instead of 2 PLD, the 2nd HQ proc isn't needed at all and NM can be killed with just 1 HQ proc.

This apply to every VW, for example rex. You pop NM, pop fana and zerg, get HQ hint, NM will 2hr at 70%, you pop fool for 2hr, you have over 1 min to reset spell before DDs(let it be melee burn or mage burn) run out of fana/fool. That's enough time to reset your spell. You proc HQ during 2hr, DDs pop fana again and finish it. Taking 2 BLU over 1 just makes the pt kill slower, and may ended up needing 2nd HQ proc to finish it. Ideally VW should be dead with 1 fana recharge(1 HQ/EV proc), or 2 at best. If pt needs more than 3 HQ/EV proc to drop it's HP from 100% to 0, then the pt is lacking dmg and just increase the chance to wipe. You have 3 HQ/EV proc up at once, the chance that you're stucked with BLU is very small,

Also saying I have 0 experience in VW is pretty dumb, I joined many other PUG VW pt, and made a lot of PUG VW pt myself, and often kill harder VW such as rex or proveanance in 2~3 min. Those pt who put WHM in same pt as DD, or take 2x BLU and split spell and made them do nothing except spamming spell are often the slowest PUG pt with highest chance to wipe. The pt with highest success rate is pt that can kill VWNM in 1.5min~2 min, any longer just requires additional EV/HQ proc to stay alive and higher chance to wipe. I'm not the only one that puts WHM outside of VW pt and only take 1 BLU, plenty of other LS/PUG does it, and their pt also often kill faster with lower chance to wipe. I'm also not the only one arguing about BLU shouldn't gimp themselves and split spell and do nothing. 98% of time if pt has problem with proc speed, it's often WS proc because ppl doing same WS and not organized. Having 2 BLU isn't worth it on majority of VW, unless you're killing too fast, that's just the way it goes. I've done many VW pt with WHM cure outside of DD pt, and only 1 BLU, NM dead in 1.5~2 min, and WHM cured just fine if your DD knows how to pop fana, why do you need WHM in same pt? Or should I post a vid of WHM curing outside of DD pt to prove to you that WHM doesn't need to be in same pt to keep DDs alive if they know how to pop temp?