Double attack vs haste

[Musahashi]

One thing worries me about monks recently, I've been seeing alot of monks with double attack+ gear in places where they could have haste+ gear instead, even on earrings and rings, isn't it better to have better STR than double attack?

There was a post on FFXIAH displaying a graph between the output of double attack gear vs. haste gear, If anyone could be bothered finding it and posting it here I think it would help alot of the new monks, and bandwagon monks see what they're missing out on.

Also, does anyone agree that double attack should be a monk job trait aswell as or instead of warrior? Too many times I've subbed DNC or NIN because I've been asked, and then felt like I should be attacking a whole lot more.

[Mirage]

Well if you've capped gear haste, DA/TA is where it's at.
DA and TA increases TP gain, str doesn't :>.

[Musahashi]

Monk doesn't gain anything from TA unless your subbing a job with an active TA job trait.

As for DA, I'm still uncertain, monk is built upon STR, it eats STR to make it what it is, and if I can get more damage per attack, I'd much rather do that as the mob has less chance to gain TP, unlike through more, less powerfull attacks from me.

Even with a decent subtle blow % on my monk, I'd still much rather kill the mob in less attacks than more.

[Evilvivi]

For TP, DA/TA is generally better than str, since in abyssea you probably overcap fstr from cruor buffs.
For WSs, most of the DA pieces that I can think of beat str+ gear in that same slot, except Twilight Belt.
As for haste, capping it is more important, I cant think of any piece where you would sacrifice haste for DA except Twilight Belt, in which there has already been a debate on how much that sux for MNK.

[Protey]

you're capped on STR, go with epona's, it's the best choice.

[Mojo]

You have some tremendous misconceptions about how STR, Double Attack, and Triple Attack work.

To begin with, you don't need any native Triple Attack trait to receive benefit from Triple Attack gear. Epona's Ring, for instance, will give you a 3% Triple Attack occurrence despite not having the trait to begin with. The same statement can be said for double attacks.

STR can help in two ways. First, 2 STR = 1 Attack. Most people understand this quite easily. The second is a bit more obscure, it's called fSTR. fSTR is a value calculated from the difference between your STR and the mobs VIT. The value is augmented onto the DMG from your weapon. It's a weird step function that only increases by one per 4-6 STR you add. A general rule of thumb is that with a high margin between your STR and the mobs VIT, then +4 STR = +1 DMG, which is often the case with MNK these days for a variety of reasons. However, fSTR also caps. The cap is 8 + weapon rank. Weapon rank, for hand to hand weapons, is (DMG+3)/9, rounded down, where DMG is the +DMG listed on your weapon. So for 90 Verethragna, for instance, the fSTR cap is 8+(35+3)/9 = 8+4.22 = 8+4 = 12. The fSTR cap will occur when you have (14 + 2x weapon rank)*2 more STR than the mobs VIT, so in my case 44 STR. Once you go beyond this point, then the only advantage to more STR on meleeing is due to the 2 STR = 1 Attack (which is somewhat of a pitiful bonus, to be honest.)

Full Tantra +2 feet/body/head/tathlum, Rajas Ring, Black Belt, (all of this is standard TP gear) red curry bun and merits yields STR+66. So any mob I'm fighting, as a hume MNK, will need at least 105 VIT in order for fSTR to become uncapped. This doesn't really occur anywhere outside of Abyssea except on a few HNM nobody fights (but even then I doubt this), and even if it does, it's not really a big deal (I'll explain why in a bit.) Inside of Abyssea, this never happens, because cruor buffs add between 30 and 70 STR on top of this.

Now, let's say that, for some reason you might encounter a situation where fSTR starts to become uncapped. The total DMG that's used for your melee attacks is this.

Total DMG = 3+0.11(h2h skill) + weapon DMG + fSTR. 90 MNK with 8 H2H merits, Faith Torque, and Tantra gets 391 H2H skill.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(391) + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33.01 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 93

So losing 1 fSTR brings my melee DoT down by 1.08%. I understand that not everybody is going to have Verethagna and Faith/Tantra. So for those calculations, you could just use capped merits and Taurine Cesti.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(377) + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41.47 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 83

Losing 1 fSTR equates to a 1.20% decrease in melee damage.

So in either of these cases, it's very small, and unlikely to occur anyways.

Double Attack/Triple Attack, on the other hand, will raise your DoT immensely. The marginal gains can be approximated by the following (for double attack.)

% increase = 100*(n)/(100 + d). n represents the double attack increase some piece of gear provides while d is the double attack you had before adding that gear. So, in the case of brutal earring on a MNK/WAR with no other gear (n = 5 from earring d = 10 from double attack trait), the double attack increases their DoT by this much.

% increase = 100(5)/(100 + 10) = 500/110 = 4.54%.

That's huge in comparison to the pathetic advantage of more STR.

For Triple Attack, you could use the following.

% increase = 100*(2*m)/(100 + 2*t), m is the amount added by the new piece of gear, t is what you already had. So in the case of Epona's Ring, the DoT increase just from the Triple Attack portion, could be approximated by this.

% increase = 100*(2*3)/(100 + 2*0)
% increase = 600/100 =6.00%

Lastly, those two equations I gave aren't exactly correct. They don't take into account how double attack and triple attack overlap and the contribution of kick attacks (double attack can't proc on them) to your DoT. However, the changes they would only affect the results by fractions of a percent. So these are still pretty good ballpark figures, and adequately shows that meleeing in STR over Double Attack/Triple Attack is a horrible idea.

[Dfoley]

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...MjA1NTkz&hl=en

This is a haste tool I made and you can use it to see the difference between 24 and 25% haste vs losing that 1% haste and gaining 5% da or 3% TA

Download the excel file (dont try to use it on google docs).

[Dfoley]

Example:
with 24% gear haste and 15% spell haste
30% da, 15% ta

You are looking at ~59 hits a min that you gain roughly 5.6tp for

Add in the 1% haste to bump you to 25% and you are looking at roughly, 60 hits a min

Add in 3% da/ta instead of the haste, (24% gear) and you are at 62 swings a min.

So in this example you are better off being at 24% gear haste (15% spell) and going for the extra da/ta

[Cream_Soda]

You have some tremendous misconceptions about how STR, Double Attack, and Triple Attack work.

To begin with, you don't need any native Triple Attack trait to receive benefit from Triple Attack gear. Epona's Ring, for instance, will give you a 3% Triple Attack occurrence despite not having the trait to begin with. The same statement can be said for double attacks.

STR can help in two ways. First, 2 STR = 1 Attack. Most people understand this quite easily. The second is a bit more obscure, it's called fSTR. fSTR is a value calculated from the difference between your STR and the mobs VIT. The value is augmented onto the DMG from your weapon. It's a weird step function that only increases by one per 4-6 STR you add. A general rule of thumb is that with a high margin between your STR and the mobs VIT, then +4 STR = +1 DMG, which is often the case with MNK these days for a variety of reasons. However, fSTR also caps. The cap is 8 + weapon rank. Weapon rank, for hand to hand weapons, is (DMG+3)/9, rounded down, where DMG is the +DMG listed on your weapon. So for 90 Verethragna, for instance, the fSTR cap is 8+(35+3)/9 = 8+4.22 = 8+4 = 12. The fSTR cap will occur when you have (14 + 2x weapon rank)*2 more STR than the mobs VIT, so in my case 44 STR. Once you go beyond this point, then the only advantage to more STR on meleeing is due to the 2 STR = 1 Attack (which is somewhat of a pitiful bonus, to be honest.)

Full Tantra +2 feet/body/head/tathlum, Rajas Ring, Black Belt, (all of this is standard TP gear) red curry bun and merits yields STR+66. So any mob I'm fighting, as a hume MNK, will need at least 105 VIT in order for fSTR to become uncapped. This doesn't really occur anywhere outside of Abyssea except on a few HNM nobody fights (but even then I doubt this), and even if it does, it's not really a big deal (I'll explain why in a bit.) Inside of Abyssea, this never happens, because cruor buffs add between 30 and 70 STR on top of this.

Now, let's say that, for some reason you might encounter a situation where fSTR starts to become uncapped. The total DMG that's used for your melee attacks is this.

Total DMG = 3+0.11(h2h skill) + weapon DMG + fSTR. 90 MNK with 8 H2H merits, Faith Torque, and Tantra gets 391 H2H skill.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(391) + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33.01 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 93

So losing 1 fSTR brings my melee DoT down by 1.08%. I understand that not everybody is going to have Verethagna and Faith/Tantra. So for those calculations, you could just use capped merits and Taurine Cesti.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(377) + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41.47 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 83

Losing 1 fSTR equates to a 1.20% decrease in melee damage.

So in either of these cases, it's very small, and unlikely to occur anyways.

Double Attack/Triple Attack, on the other hand, will raise your DoT immensely. The marginal gains can be approximated by the following (for double attack.)

% increase = 100*(n)/(100 + d). n represents the double attack increase some piece of gear provides while d is the double attack you had before adding that gear. So, in the case of brutal earring on a MNK/WAR with no other gear (n = 5 from earring d = 10 from double attack trait), the double attack increases their DoT by this much.

% increase = 100(5)/(100 + 10) = 500/110 = 4.54%.

That's huge in comparison to the pathetic advantage of more STR.

For Triple Attack, you could use the following.

% increase = 100*(2*m)/(100 + 2*t), m is the amount added by the new piece of gear, t is what you already had. So in the case of Epona's Ring, the DoT increase just from the Triple Attack portion, could be approximated by this.

% increase = 100*(2*3)/(100 + 2*0)
% increase = 600/100 =6.00%

Lastly, those two equations I gave aren't exactly correct. They don't take into account how double attack and triple attack overlap and the contribution of kick attacks (double attack can't proc on them) to your DoT. However, the changes they would only affect the results by fractions of a percent. So these are still pretty good ballpark figures, and adequately shows that meleeing in STR over Double Attack/Triple Attack is a horrible idea.

Mojo saved me a lot of typing. Good work.

[Nvr]

I am confused. The title of the thread is Double attack vs haste and his concern was that people were using DA gear where they could use Haste gear, but his question is...

isn't it better to have better STR than double attack?

I feel like the thread got off topic in the original post lol...

On a side note, thank you Mojo for the very detail reasoning behind DA vs STR, which is probably what the thread should have been titled