Double attack vs haste

[Musahashi]

I am confused. The title of the thread is Double attack vs haste and his concern was that people were using DA gear where they could use Haste gear, but his question is...



I feel like the thread got off topic in the original post lol...

On a side note, thank you Mojo for the very detail reasoning behind DA vs STR, which is probably what the thread should have been titled

...Well, not exactly what I was looking for.

As my original post asked for a chart showing the difference between DA and HASTE in your equipment slots. However someone started me off on going down the road of DA vs. STR, and to be honest, even with that post, I would still rather get more STR and HASTE than DA.

Reason being, if for example, I'm fighting an NM/HNM/Caturae whatever, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm gonna get a haste, and from that point on, I'm attacking almost as quick as w/ hundred fists. So why bother wasting your space on DA equipment? If you want seriously quick attacks, just /war have your RDM friend cast haste on you, and the only time you stop hitting is when you use an ability.

Because of this misunderstading in DA, I actually went and found the graph I was talking about. Take a look and have a think.

[Faule]

The graph is showing an independent comparison. It does not prove that Double Attack (or Triple Attack by proxy) is worthless. It's showing you the difference between using ONLY haste, versus ONLY Double Attack.

When you cap haste, increasing your attack rounds in any other fashion is acceptable. Triple Attack and Double Attack are your only other options.

If the graph showed you the effect of Double Attack/Triple Attack ON a Hasted target, you'd see that it's a good addition to anyone's gearset.

[Musahashi]

But for what compromise? If we're talking about swapping out a STR+5 VIT+5 earring for a DA+1 TA+1 earring or maybe both earrings, I'd much rather have STR and VIT instead.

What other areas have we got... Ammo? Again, I'd rather have more STR than minimal DA

As for everything else, your going to be losing something for a marginal gain on DA/TA that isn't really going to be worth the effort, or price tag. If you seriously want to try and cap both DA and haste on your gear, then figure out your setup, because I'd like to know if it can still hit for as much, and if there is any actual benefit to DoT.

[Nepharite]

But for what compromise? If we're talking about swapping out a STR+5 VIT+5 earring for a DA+1 TA+1 earring or maybe both earrings, I'd much rather have STR and VIT instead.

What other areas have we got... Ammo? Again, I'd rather have more STR than minimal DA

As for everything else, your going to be losing something for a marginal gain on DA/TA that isn't really going to be worth the effort, or price tag. If you seriously want to try and cap both DA and haste on your gear, then figure out your setup, because I'd like to know if it can still hit for as much, and if there is any actual benefit to DoT.

If you would have read Mojo's post, you'd realize that all that str is basically adding nothing to your tp phase.

Basically 1% DA is going to be worth more than +5str easily.

[Denabond]

You should reread Mojo's post. He has basically have all the math showing how DA and TA does more then STR when it comes to TPing. Haste is of course the most important, but DA and TA adds to that by giveing you more attacks, which in turn gives you more TP to WS.

[Mojo]

Haste is usually much better than Double Attack or Triple Attack because of the way it is applied, but you need a lot of it to truly reach the awesomeness point.

To address the questions of the original post, here's a way to compare marginal gains from Double Attack, Triple Attack, or Haste.

Variable	Stat
g		The amount of haste to be added.
h		The amount of haste already had.
n		The amount of double attack to be added.
d		The amount of double attack already had.
m		The amount of triple attack to be added.
t		The amount of triple attack already had.

% increase = (g)/(100-g-h)
% increase = (100*n)/(100 + d)
% increase = (200*m)/(100 + 2*t)

Remember a marginal gain represents the increase from what you had before you equipped that once piece of gear to what you observe after.

For instance, equipping a Black Belt without any other source of Haste (g=12 h=0) yields the following.

% increase = 12/(100-12-0) = 12/88 = 13.6%

Now, equipping the same Black Belt when you had spell Haste(15), Tantra Crown +2(7), & Tantra Hose +2(6) (g=12, h=15+7+6=28) yields the following.

% increase = 12/(100-12-28) = 12/60 = 20.0%

So the more you have of it, the better it will get. That explains what you see on the graph, with haste curving upward exponentially as it approaches 100. Also worth noting is that haste from gear caps at 25. So if you happen to have Black Belt, Tantra Crown +2 and Tantra Hose +2, you will no longer experience any gains from adding haste from equipment.

Double Attack and Triple Attack do not experience the same increasing returns that Haste does. However, as my last post did show, the benefits of Double Attack and Triple Attack are leaps and bounds ahead of STR.

Alright, I lied earlier about something. You will gain something from the 26th point of gear haste because the actual values for haste are binary and are often just below the listed value (Wahlahra Turban, for instance, is 4.8828125% haste, not 5%.) But really, you don't need to worry too much about those fractions. These ballpark figures will give you good enough estimates when comparing gear.

So, for the most part, gearing for haste is going to be better point for point than Double Attack and usually better than Triple Attack. Honestly though, I can't think of any gear that would ever force you to choose between the two. It just never happens.

[Cream_Soda]

I'm attacking almost as quick as w/ hundred fists. So why bother wasting your space on DA equipment?

Because you'll attack more w/ it than w/o it.

If you want seriously quick attacks, just /war have your RDM friend cast haste on you, and the only time you stop hitting is when you use an ability.

And you'd still hit more w/ DA gear.

Haste's delay cap for attack speed has 0 to do with double attack, just how fast your attack rounds come. The DA is still applied to each of those attack rounds and you get the exact same number of extra attacks at high levels of haste vs low levels of haste.

So simply adding a lot of magic haste doesn't make DA gear any less useful.

[Mojo]

Also, I thought I might add that the chart there is somewhat outdated. There is an attack speed reduction of 80% that applies to all sources of attack speed modification. But, back in the days before this existed, a lone DRK/SAM with the best Haste gear available, Soul Voice'd Marches, Haste, capped Desperate Blows, Hasso, Souleater & Blood Weapon up could pretty much destructinate anything in the game within seconds because they were literally attacking 16 times faster than normal and hitting for more than 12% of their HP per swing.

[Corwin]

Bad case of too much eyeballing numbers and not enough number crunching. Your unbacked arguments of stacking STR for TP is terrible.

Use a chart that is more than slightly relevant to your stance.

[Musahashi]

I guess trying to help out people is pointless, oh well. You guys, go for your DA/TA bonus' lol!

Me, I'm gonna stick w/ STR + haste, I've tried it, tested it, and for 7 years, I still haven't hit any damage cap/limitation, even in abyssea w/ over 200 STR on offer, and still find the DoT is better with more STR than any kind of DA bonus.

I haven't ever made any charts on this, nor had 3rd party software log my results, but I have tested out different options. Everything from substituting acc for Dex, Str for Att, and trying out various setups for TP build and WS builds.

My finds are simple, gear to the haste cap, the acc cap, and fill everything else with STR. then you can sit back and watch SAM's cry. If you guys wanna go for DA, feel free.... lol.