Planned adjustments to Neo-Nyzul = THF no longer wanted?

[Laphine]

I still believe we have more to contribute than damage at nyzul. Most floors are about killspeed, but enemies are weak, and the real deal is not fight time but idle time inbetween. 18% movement+ and flee helps a lot with that. For example if we had a kill all floor i would just flee to the depths of this floor and aggro/pull everything from there to where my party is at (fighting mobs i left at the start). If flee was down, chances are the THF dps will be higher too because we can reach enemies faster anyways. Mov+ will also help with lamp floor making us able to reach the deep ones faster. If the situation lines up, we could even pop 3 close by same time lamps with flee.

[Aana]

Nyzul is generally squishy mobs and less than super capped haste. That is where thf easily matches everyone else. Sure, a crap thf wont keep up with a crap mnk, but if your party is a buncha crappy players they arent hitting 100 anyway. Those guys will be more limited by their coordination than their killing power.

The only thing that (i think) will change between old nyzul and new nyzul is you wont just fill the 6th spot with a crappy thf for TH on boss. Any thf that is worth their salt wont really be a hindrance on a stream of squishy mobs with less than perfect buffs and LOTS of running time. If anything, i feel this is one of the events thf IS good at. I cant tell you how much time ive saved because I could hide aggro on a lamp floor isntead of wasting time killing it like the warrior does, or fleeing back to the porter, or just letting a room full of shit wail on me whiffing while fighting the floor's target mob so we can just kill the NM and go up.

Nyzul is about being fast. 90% coordination/sneaking/manueverability/low maintenance (sneaking off by yourself to complete objectives and being self sufficient). 10% killing power. I really think Thfs lacking DD (from top end heavy DDs) is getting far to much attention for this event. Nyzul isnt all that much about killing super duper fast and more about cutting corners and coordination.

Only difference i see is not making space for ANY shitty thf just to TH the boss because the focus beween old and new NI has shifted from the boss fight (old) and more about climbing. Crappy TH whore thfs wont get an easy in to good groups that just need TH anymore. Good riddance.

[Karbuncle]

True in some ways, but The vast majority of Nyzul Objectives involve Killing

Kill All
Kill Family
Kill Spec
Kill Mini-Boss
(Boss Floor)

Vs

Lamps. Order/Sametime/Code

Killspeed is a large factor in Nyzul Isle, much more than is commonly Known. A BST and BLU, two jobs that out-DD THF by leaps and bounds in Easy-mob style Events, Can easily be self-substaining and go off on their own to kill stuff. Fleeing Back to lamp really isn't as useful as it used to be when most groups keep a Mage at the lamp.

So being able to kill enemies even 5 seconds quicker each could be the difference between Hitting floor 80, Or hitting floor 70. Co-ordination plays a huge part, But even the most co-ordinated group will do nothing if they've got no Damage output.

Equally Geared and Skilled, a Group is better off Losing the THF For either a BST or a BLU. Both offer more survivability and more damage potential. One thing, as you mentioned, that might keep THF viable is their selection of Movement speed gear. That getting from A to B Quicker can be the saving grace of the job, Especially on floors like "Kill Spec".

But then again, If a THF Takes 10 Seconds to find a mob, and 20 seconds to kill it. and a BLU takes 20 Seconds to find, But only 10 seconds to kill, It balances out. (BLU Can dispatch weak mobs much quicker than THF because of the spells).

Its a toss up. THF Has its uses, But its up to the individual to determine if those are useful. As i said in my earlier post, Floor 80 armor is really just a consolation prize, Floor 100 Armor is the big deal, and it being essentially "100% Drop" from floor 100 means The goal would likely be Shooting for 100, Hitting 80 only as a "well, okay..." situation. And even then, Killing the 80 boss is more for "Kill it 25 to get a floor 100 piece" and not for the floor 80 armor.

floor 80 Armor is good on its own, But aren't the real prize.

[Starry]

Seriously, I like THF as much as the next guy; but anyone thinking that THF is ANYWHERE close to the DD/KillSpeed/Efficency of other classes in Nyzul must have some very...very large blinders on..

[Aana]

Kill All: Only floor type that is primarily killing
Kill Family: Balance between sneaking/walking and killing.
Kill Spec: Kill ONE DC MOB. 95% runing/sneaking
Kill Mini-Boss: Kill ONE (slightly harder mob). 85% running
(Boss Floor) Zerg. 0 runnign time.
Lamps: (ideally) no kills.

Yes most of the objectives have something to do with killing things. The ALL excet boss floor are mostly running around in circles. Most of nyzul is running around to find the couple of action items on the floor.

Parse your next ein run with Kparse. See how much time you actually spend engaged. Now consider how much it wont matter. 10/20 seconds? sure can make a dif. Does dropping some shit for brain thf for a good DD help a lot? yeah. Will a competent thf be some ball and chain like you make it sound? no.

I get it. You think Thf doesnt have a role and is the rdm of melee. You dont have to exaggerate how bad thf is and the sky is falling. As i said, this will only mean that shit for brains TH whore thfs dont get an automatic invite as the 6th slot in a NI party like at 75. Any good thf will be an asset to a group unless you can just whip out a similarly skilled player out of your ass to replace a good thf. So shitty thfs dont get a free ride to 100 and god thfs can play. Thats fine with me.

[Karbuncle]

Read at your own Risk

Kill All: Only floor type that is primarily killing
Kill Family: Balance between sneaking/walking and killing.
Kill Spec: Kill ONE DC MOB. 95% runing/sneaking
Kill Mini-Boss: Kill ONE (slightly harder mob). 85% running
(Boss Floor) Zerg. 0 runnign time.
Lamps: (ideally) no kills.

Yes most of the objectives have something to do with killing things. The ALL excet boss floor are mostly running around in circles. Most of nyzul is running around to find the couple of action items on the floor.

Parse your next ein run with Kparse. See how much time you actually spend engaged. Now consider how much it wont matter. 10/20 seconds? sure can make a dif. Does dropping some shit for brain thf for a good DD help a lot? yeah. Will a competent thf be some ball and chain like you make it sound? no.

I get it. You think Thf doesnt have a role and is the rdm of melee. You dont have to exaggerate how bad thf is and the sky is falling. As i said, this will only mean that shit for brains TH whore thfs dont get an automatic invite as the 6th slot in a NI party like at 75. Any good thf will be an asset to a group unless you can just whip out a similarly skilled player out of your ass to replace a good thf. So shitty thfs dont get a free ride to 100 and god thfs can play. Thats fine with me.

You're kinda pulling those numbers out of nowhere. I do too sometimes, so i forgive you :P

But yah. an automatic invite to 75 Nyzul because drops were specifically from the RNG, and you can target floors. Neo-Nyzul is a completely different Dynamic. Especially with the Progressive reward of Killing bosses = Armor, and the random layout that heavily favors being quick.

Its all variable, You could get a boss floor with the Mob sitting in the next room waving at you. I've done it countless times, Nyzul isn't that big, 18% movement isn't going to make up for the lack of killspeed compared to replacing a THF with a better DD.

Theres also the times when your mobs are Clear across the map where Flee could help. Parses will mean nothing when every parse will be completely different due to monster placement and layout, as well as objectives, being random.

Being able to move faster once every 5 minutes Doesn't really make up for the Killspeed gain a BLU or BST has over THF, and I believe both of those jobs can wear Movement Speed +12% Armor, so 6% More movement won't make up for that difference either, assuming the THF in question even owns Fajin boots.

A good THF will be an asset, But in the reality of it, A Good BLU or BST will be a much better Asset. Much much better. The problem is, Any group capable of consistently hitting 80~100 will realize how much of a Liability THF is. only time a THF is getting invited is to a group doomed from the beginning.

P.S: While i may be slightly over-exaggerating THF's uselessness, you're over-exaggerating them and uses examples from situations that are meaningless, THF is nowhere near even half as useful as you make it sound. The Job Is a second place in every field its got its foot in, Only reason people bring it is as i said, pretty much a safety net of TH Drops.

I get you like the job, I love THF Too, But you are either in denial or are arguing for the sake of Arguing. THF is not a good job, Its not useful at anything, Flee isn't some miracle asset thats going to make or break a Nyzul run, Even if it was, It wouldn't be often enough to continually sacrifice over-all Killspeed for the off chance moving faster every 5 minutes might help your run.

Quite frankly, trying to be nice and all, but the only people who still think THF is useful are those who are blind to the condition the job is in and try desperately to grasp at reasons to think its good. If THF didn't have Treasure Hunter, It wouldn't see an invite to anything, ever, Because it would just be a mediocre DD with no strong aspects.

TH, and ignorance of the benefits of TH past level 3, Are the only reason you will ever see a Thief in an Event. You're not invited to THF because you're a good DD, you're not going THF cause you can tank, or pull, You're going THF Cause your leader is either like "Fuck it we can't lose" like in a Voidwatch group looking for its last member, Or because your leader wants to get TH.

When you remove the usefulness of TH, The job is dead. Like in Voidwatch, and in my opinion only, Neo-Nyzul, Since Neo-nyzul is introducing a system i feel benefits Consistently hitting floor 80+ Rather than hoping for TH to make something drop.

As I explained quite Clearly in the other Thread we talked in, THF isn't a WHM Melee level "lol", Its got its own good points, Its just its strong points are still less strong than other jobs. I'll use the car example again:

If you think being able to out-dd Gimps at a reliable pace makes the job good, i commend you, Me? I personally prefer I had a use other than "making things drop 0.5% more than a /THF can" and "Being a mediocre DD in the mean time". So again i repeat, Take away TH, and what is THF? Its nothing. Its not a good DD, Any job can Pull, Every job in the game has access to movement Speed+ Gear.

Edit: Allow me to pull this from the other thread.

To Clarify the best i can. In terms of me on the subject of "THF is a useless DD" and "THF can deal good Damage", Its not contradicting. Lets put it this Way.

THF is a Car that can go 80 MPH,
WAR can go 100MPH
SAM can go 90MPH

In this comparison, THF is still a fast car(read; Good DD on its own), But if your Goal is getting from A to B as quick as possible, You don't chose a THF mobile, You chose the WARmobile(Read: THF is useless when placed next to WAR). in the same way, Thats how THF DD looks, and what i'm trying to Convey, Its not contradicting, You just have to know how to look at it.

I don't want THF to go 100MPH, I want THF to go 80MPH, But make friendly Cars around it Gain 10MPG to their Fuel consumption, and maybe enemy cars go 5MPH slower. Keeping it a Fast Car, But making other Cars perform better so its useful to have it a long in more ways than just being "A fast car, But not as fast...".

Otherwise, You'd just replace the 80MPH Car with the 100MPH Car and gain 20MPH.

Right now, THF Goes 80MPH and Sprinkles magic dust behind it(TH), no one knows exactly what all the magic dust does, We just know it looks pretty and someone tells us its like rubbing Cheetah Blood on the car.

I think this explanation works.

Does that clear it up? I know THF is Pretty good as a DD, But its "pretty good" At just about everything it does, and is not "Great" at anything. It excels at nothing. "useless" isn't the best word to describe it, "Less than needed" is a better term. Its a good Alternative when your willing to settle, But its not really needed or necessary.

all the "Power of Friendship and Believing!" in the world isn't going to make up for the what job lacks in uniqueness and uses. Any job can fill the Roles THF "Falls into" When TH is removed.

NIN's and DNC's can EVA Tank and Survive better, both have Stronger Defensive tools. Utsusemi, and Dances/Fan-Dance
WARs, DRG, SAMs, MNKs, etc can DD better
Any job in the game can pull
All jobs can wear movement speed gear.

THF, Its not exactly dead in the water because TH luckily still carries some weight in people who don't educate themself.

THF needs something, SE and apparently half this forum seem to think TH makes the job dandy and okay, It doesn't need to become a king DD, But it needs something unique to it outside of TH, cause TH doesn't really save the job in most events.

(Also, As i said before, THF isn't the only job who falls in this category)

Also, Despite all of the HRRRNG in the above, I actually don't really feel THF needs more attention than say, RDM. THF Still has its points where it can be invited for whatever reason. Theres jobs in worst conditions.

[Aana]

The problem is you keep polarizing every post with phrases like:

THF is not a good job, Its not useful at anything

Just because a job is 90% of another job doesnt mean its shit. If that is what you subscribe to then every job is shit except one unless they are all identical and that diminishes the value of everything that isnt the best and, quite frankly, is the elitest bullcrap thats been behind a lot of stupidness in this game. 'If your not 1st your last' is a recipe for flames.

"useless" isn't the best word to describe it, "Less than needed" is a better term

At least this is a more balanced approach that wont throw everyone who actually likes thf on the defensive.

I get the whole thing. In a vacuum 2 equivalently skilled players, there are often reasons to choose the 'other' player over the thf. But that isnt how it plays out in-game. You dont just have infinite players to choose from of equal skill. If people i know are setting up a NI run, not a one will flinch at me coming thf because I am still one of the BEST choices they can make because i dont suck. They dont really have an option to say...."well....we dont want a thf so were going to get this imaginary equally skilled person standing next to you that happens to have a pimped out 'real' DD! PEACE!". That isnt how this game works. If you are a good player, you get to participate because the events are designed so that a group of GOOD players can achieve the goals. If you are a such a player, whatever job you have focused your attention on will be more than capable of completing the task.

No one in their right mind will say Thf has the same damage potential as an 80% hasted war. But that doesnt make thf obsolete. The question is, can thf be a capable and useful member of a group to complete the task (in this case NI). The answer is yes. Is there room for thf to be improved, sure, but this "if your not 1st at anything your last in everything" is getting really old. As big as i am about spending hours calculating and min-maxing for this game, this game has way more to consider than just the 'perfect' setups/buffs/situations. People arent equally skilled and geared. Because of that thf always has a chance.

Beating the bejesus out of 95% of the server because you dont suck IS something. Just because you cant beat the top 5% doesnt mean you have no place in the world. Quite frankly, any set of DDs that are in the top tier of players can do NI. Will the group with a thf have a 5% lower success rate or whatever? Maybe so. But who gives a shit. Its not nearly as dramatic as you make it sound. A little love and koom-bai-ya does make a slightly less than perfect setup still fun. A group that looses 1 more of 20 runs doesnt start a mutiny that kills the thf and reps him.

I have NEVER been ostracized the way you describe thf to be based on its inherent inferiority. I dont know what deuchbags you play with that kick you so they can have a 2% better success rate.

TLDR: Even though, according to you, my mythic drg can basically do everything my thf does, but better, I still dont use it for everything and its not because I like being inefficient. Its because Thf is still useful and even preferred for some things and darn good at em. (Voidwatch is not one of those things, but that is because its shit for procs. The same reason Smn went from lolSmn to must have for VW even though its bottom rung DD and support).

[Karbuncle]

I'm really starting to like our conversations. Don't ever disappoint me.

The problem is you keep polarizing every post with phrases like:


Just because a job is 90% of another job doesnt mean its shit.

It does in FFXI

If that is what you subscribe to then every job is shit except one unless they are all identical and that diminishes the value of everything that isnt the best and, quite frankly, is the elitest bullcrap thats been behind a lot of stupidness in this game. 'If your not 1st your last' is a recipe for flames.

You know theres different strong points to every job right?

WHM is the best Healer,
SCH has Embrava,
BLM is the best Nuker.

Whats RDM...? Oh, A mediocre combination of that, And thus useless, as it has no strong unique qualities. Debuffing is all but a dead art.

WAR is a Strong DD, So is MNK, and DRK, and DRG, and SAM, but WAR/SAM are considered some of the best, MNK Very close, and DRG/DRK being further behind. When looking for "Good" DD, WAR/SAM Are generally the pick of the liter.

DRK, DRG, and other "lesser" DD suffer from a problem of not having anything truly unique about them, and as such, are out-classed by stronger DD. Though, DRG has a Wyvern, With Healing Breath, it makes a nice solo partner. DRK has the ability to use Dark magic, which is actually kinda useless, and frankly, even DRK wouldn't be invited to Voidwatch without their procs.

DRK has a bit more survivability than WAR/SAM Though, as DRK has things like Dread Spikes, Drain, and Drain II, as well as access to all the same Defensive gear (PDT/MDT Sets about match on DRK and WAR). Its not about every job being the same, Its about every job having some sort of use. In a game with 20 Jobs, Its hard to achieve any real true balance, but a job thats a 1 trick Pony needs attention.

And theres a few of those, not just THF>

At least this is a more balanced approach that wont throw everyone who actually likes thf on the defensive.

I love THF, But I feel denial of the Jobs "uses" only hurts us more. You can love something and realize where its failings are. If you honestly stepped back, took off the BeerGoggles, and looked at THF From a completely subjective manner, Even you may see the jobs situations.

It, Like RDM, Has nothing unique enough to keep it useful. Its a less-than-good Combination of what other jobs can do better. It doesn't need to be the best DD, It needs something that makes it stand out.

there are often reasons to choose the 'other' player over the thf. But that isnt how it plays out in-game. You dont just have infinite players to choose from of equal skill. If people i know are setting up a NI run, not a one will flinch at me coming thf because I am still one of the BEST choices they can make because i dont suck.

Again, Picking your THF Cause its better than a Gimp pick up member doesn't make the job good. Its a dumb argument, no offense. Just because your friends know you're better than a Full Perle SAM Doesn't mean THF is just fine how it is.

They dont really have an option to say...."well....we dont want a thf so were going to get this imaginary equally skilled person standing next to you that happens to have a pimped out 'real' DD! PEACE!".

Thats your friends. Personally, my friends know I'm a magnificent THF, But If I had an Ukonvasara? I'd go WAR, because I'd be more of an asset to the party.

That isnt how this game works.

yes it is. You're not always doing events low man with your friends, and not everyone on the server knows how you gear or play, so what do they fall back on? The Facts about the job itself, And the facts on THF? Its Mediocre at everything, except for Treasure Hunter. Most of FFXI Today is shout groups, and Shout groups, being the majority, rule.

An unfortunate truth.

If you are a good player, you get to participate because the events are designed so that a group of GOOD players can achieve the goals.

Wrong. Sadly, I wish this was the case. But your "Popularity" means nothing if your job isn't useful. You can be the best damn PUP on the Server, But if you have an Equally geared WAR, and you're asked to go to Nyzul, guess what job You'll be invited as?

WAR, 9/10. I mean, If you're doing it with friends and you ask to go PUP, Thats what friends are for. I'm talking in circles. Just because your friends let you come THF doesn't mean the job is fine, It means, again, They're banking on you being better than a Pick up DD. Not everything is done specifically with friends.

If you are a such a player, whatever job you have focused your attention on will be more than capable of completing the task.

I beg to Differ, You can be the best Player in the world, But you're not going to make Melee RDM work. Same logic applies to THF, You can believe in the heart of the cards and be the Best THF in the world, It isn't going to break the In-game barriers of Math.

No one in their right mind will say Thf has the same damage potential as an 80% hasted war. But that doesnt make thf obsolete.

It... Kinda does. When the name of the game is "kill this as quick as you can", 80% of 100 isn't cutting in. Again, No ones arguing THF is a terrible DD, They just aren't the best, and they have no other unique qualities.

Its less about THF being a good DD, and more about Thief needing Unique qualities, TH Doesn't cut it anymore. Theres plenty of things, suggested here, In other threads, on other boards, that are within reason, and can help THF Stand out in the crowd more than TH3.

The question is, can thf be a capable and useful member of a group to complete the task (in this case NI). The answer is yes.

Stand back and look at it this way, Say you have BLU, and THF, They both are equally geared, and you as a good player, Are skilled at both. If you had to chose which one of those jobs to go to Neo-Nyzul on, Which would you chose? answer honestly.

Personally, I'd go BLU, because it would benefit my group much more.

Is there room for thf to be improved, sure, but this "if your not 1st at anything your last in everything" is getting really old.

Getting old or not, coming in second place isn't a victory, No amount of pep-talk will change that. Many jobs suffer from this, But a lot of jobs have something that makes them stand out. THF however, does not.

So yes, Being second place is losing. Being a Mediocre Combination of performance other jobs can do better, Is losing. I want to believe you, and maybe its just being on Asura, but THF and RDM's aren't swimming in invites, Because they aren't good jobs.

They perform some roles Adequately, but that does not mean the job is fine.

As big as i am about spending hours calculating and min-maxing for this game, this game has way more to consider than just the 'perfect' setups/buffs/situations.

Preaching the the choir, Wanna hear a dirty little secret? I don't math out shit for FFXI, My gear sets come from me learning from others who do the math. But unfortunately, The Golden "People are gimp and i dont have time to learn" rule doesn't really make THF a good job.

People arent equally skilled and geared. Because of that thf always has a chance.

A RDM Melee can out-DD a gimp WAR, Doesn't mean RDM should stop getting buffs. Same goes for THF. Human error isn't an excuse to keep a job mediocre.

Beating the bejesus out of 95% of the server because you dont suck IS something. Just because you cant beat the top 5% doesnt mean you have no place in the world.

Its not that i don't think THF has no place in the world, I just think its place in the World is a farce. Beating out 95% of the world (who is gimp) again, while fun, and impressive, Doesn't mean the job is fine, it just means the world is gimp.

I don't want my THF to beat everyone, I want my THF To have something to do other than try and beat everyone. I want to actually PARTICIPATE in an event outside of being a Second Rate DD and a Lootwhore whos Treasure Hunter Trait never Activates apparently.

Quite frankly, any set of DDs that are in the top tier of players can do NI. Will the group with a thf have a 5% lower success rate or whatever? Maybe so. But who gives a shit.

I give a shit, Many people give a shit. Not everyone plays FFXI to casually stroll along with no real goal, half-assing things and throwing their hands up and going "Oh well " when they time out on Floor 50.

You seem to be having a bad case of the "I don't care, So that must mean i'm right". Just because you're perfectly content with how THF Stands and don't really care about achieving anything in a timely manner doesn't mean THF is a job that needs no attention.

I have NEVER been ostracized the way you describe thf to be based on its inherent inferiority.

Like.. How do you mean? I've described situations where THF gets invited. Its not because THF is good, Its because the leader doesn't care.

I dont know what deuchbags you play with that kick you so they can have a 2% better success rate.

I hate those douchebags too, but.. They're the majority. This has been the way since forever. Was it smart to bring THF to Einherjar for anything but Odin? Nope. Was it wise to invite THF to say, Divine Might? Nope. THF has only ever been a sum of its Treasure Hunter level, And if TH is useless, So is the job.

I'm not asking for a Miracle Fix to turn THF into Hercules, It would just be nice if THF was more than a Job Trait, We can do many things at a decent level, but its not really a unique quality to be able to almost DD something. Its not unusual to really want something to do at an Event other than open a parse and see who you can beat this time

TLDR: Even though, according to you, my mythic drg can basically do everything my thf does, but better, I still dont use it for everything and its not because I like being inefficient.

There's really no logical situation for THF > MythicDRG unless you really want TH, Or are doing a foot-race across Vana'diel, In which case, THF would win, Cause we can flee.

I can say "You know Tanaka, I bring my Melee RDM to Many events instead of my Ukon War", Doesn't suddenly mean he should go, "Well gosh, We should put a hold on those RDM updates we were planning, Bringing RDM melee over an Ukon WAR? That must mean RDM melee is more broken than we thought!"

You, You yourself a unique example of how someone who enjoy having fun doesn't let their jobs inefficiencies and failings effect them. You truly enjoy the job, So you mix things up. I respect that about you.

But Frankly, That doesn't make THF good, It means you have an eye for fun and a good group of friends willing to give you freedom of job choice.

My friends let me pick my job, But unless I'm feeling really bored, I generally pick the job I will perform the best at. .

Choosing a job over another job on a whim doesn't mean Job A is > Job B, Or everytime i sat in my mog house Trying to figure out which job i was going to Campaign on, the Dynamic Shift of the Balance would collapse. I chose PUP over WAR, PLD over DRK, etc etc depending on my mood!

[Aana]

Sorry, But coming in second place isn't a victory, No amount of pep-talk or High-school Football-team Silver-Medal logic will change that. Many jobs suffer from this, But a lot of jobs have something that makes them stand out. THF however, does not.

So yes, Being second place is losing. Being a Mediocre Combination of performance other jobs can do better, Is losing. I want to believe you, and maybe its just being on Asura, but THF and RDM's aren't swimming in invites, Because they aren't good jobs.

They perform some roles Adequately, but that does not mean the job is fine.

1st off i never said the job is perfect and needs no attention. You know that by now and implying that I think it is is the farce.

2md, The above quote basically sums up our differences. I make 2 million a year. My friend makes 1.9 million a year. I guess hes just a broke bastard that doesnt deserve to live and might as well just be a welfare queen. Just because your not the richEST doesnt make you not RICH. Just because your not the best dd doesnt remove you from the world. You still do more damage/make more money than 99% of vanadiel/the world. Yet you dismiss it as completely meaningless. I dont. If i make 1.9 mil and my buddy makes 2, im not living in a cave of inferiority complex that im not as good as he is even though i work just as hard.

The very idea that you HAVE to be the best at something in and of itself is an idea you have created. Why cant a job be 90% of another one, but play differently.

I give a shit, Many people give a shit. Not everyone plays FFXI to casually stroll along with no real goal, half-assing things and throwing their hands up and going "Oh well " when they time out on Floor 50.

And here you (again) GREATLY exaggerate the ball and chain that thf is to a group. Yes. By replacing a good DD with a good thf your group goes from beating down 100 with time to spare to timing out on floor 50. Thats EXACLTY how the game works. /facepalm.

Contrary to your mindset, i AM OK knowing that I have to work a little more to get the same returns as other jobs on the DD front and that my pinnacle of performance is lower than the pinnacle of other jobs. The question isnt "what is the the BEST at" for me. The question is "Can thf be a useful member of a team to complete an objective". That is very different than "In an imaginary world where I get pick of the litter from a menagerie of equivalent players and equivalent gear of all jobs, would i ever pick thf". One represents the game world, the other represents the hypothetical.

That is what i mean when i say i dont give a shit if its not perfect. The job has ENOUGH potential to BECOME an asset. I have to work harder to reach that status, but im fine with that. To take your car example i see it more like this.

ThfMobile has different models. Base only goes 20MPH. Mid level trim can go 50 MPH. Sports edition can get 80 MPH. WarMobile base is 40MPH, mid is 70MPH and sport model is 100MPH. BrdMobile only goes 30MPH but comes with 50 gallons of jet fuel it gives to everyone and then attaches a grappling hook to the WarMobile to keep up.

My goal is to get from point A to point B in 2 hours. The distance is 140 miles. I need a 2 people to go minimum of 70 so i need a Sport model Thf or a mid grade War. Both get me to where i want to go. 2 premium wars would just do it faster and pick up a chick on the way with their glowing epeen and flames spewing out the exhaust.

Thf is 'fast enough' to participate if you get the high end model. Obviously WarMobile is a better car. You can go faster with less money, but If i just like the design of ThfMobile and want to make it work, and can make it work, who gives a shit. Its Adequate.

Adequate.

Adequate.

Would I mind getting a turbo charger put in for free? Heck no! Am I going to DEMAND the dealership give me one to keep up with WarMobile? Nope. I can still get to where i need to go in the time i need to get there.

Is a thf slowing down my convoy to point B? Yeah.
Will we get there in the time required anyway? Yeah.
Could ThfMobile be better? Yeah.
Should it just drive off the road and explode in a burst of flames because it doesnt deserve to be on the road with WarMobile because it isnt as fast and therefore has NO VALUE AT ALL?

No.

If i can work hard and make 1.9 million and im black, but my friend works just as hard but makes 2mil because hes white and gets paid more, is it fair? no. Can we both live happily ever after as rich fat bastards? Fuck yeah. You can spend your time fighting the great injustice that we should all get paid equally. I personanly cant be arsed to fight for truth and justice when im doing MORE than fine right where I am. 1.9 is 'enough' and 'adequate' for me to live happily knowing I can still make more than 99% of everyone else. Thf not being #1 doesnt mean i cant be happy with the job class even if its not 100% 'fair' to me. Im sorry if you feel useless if your not #1 at something. I actually can be happy being 'pretty good' at everything even if im not the best at anything.

[Karbuncle]

Edit: you know, When i type this out, It honestly never feels THIS long.

1st off i never said the job is perfect and needs no attention. You know that by now and implying that I think it is is the farce.

Then... Why are you arguing.

honest to Farking god question. We both feel THF is a decent job, and we both Feel THF needs improvements. Playing Dr.Phil and acting like being in second place is okay so long as you had fun on the way isn't helping the situation.

You happen to view the world of THF through the eyes of "Well, I enjoy it, Its not That bad"

I happen to view it through the eyes of "I like the job, But I'm tired of it being a one trick pony, it gets old".

2md, The above quote basically sums up our differences. I make 2 million a year. My friend makes 1.9 million a year. I guess hes just a broke bastard that doesnt deserve to live and might as well just be a welfare queen. Just because your not the richEST doesnt make you not RICH. Just because your not the best dd doesnt remove you from the world. You still do more damage/make more money than 99% of vanadiel/the world. Yet you dismiss it as completely meaningless. I dont. If i make 1.9 mil and my buddy makes 2, im not living in a cave of inferiority complex that im not as good as he is even though i work just as hard.

Real life examples rarely work against digital reality. But to tackle this one? I want to congratulate you on spelling out something to me I've already discussed not even 2 posts above you. Hint: Read the Car bit.

Second, You're trying to distort the reality of the situation, Wanna know what it is? You make less than him, and theres not a single thing different about either of you, and If someone came looking for Money, They'd go with the one who gave more money.

in FFXI, When one looks for a job to perform well, They don't instinctively go for second best, like you may. They look for what they know will provide them with the best chance for success.

The very idea that you HAVE to be the best at something in and of itself is an idea you have created.

Not really, I've been in a million situations, When someone is shouting for voidwatch specifically asking for "DD or /tell w/job", Where i send them a tell with the words "Mandau95 THF, Great gear", and get asked if i have any other jobs.

So Unfortunately, Just because you may not experience it, doesn't mean its not a reality.

Why cant a job be 90% of another one, but play differently.

If both jobs are playing to do the same thing, 90% won't cut it. i'm not going to sit here and try to teach you how the world works, But in reality, You sucking 10% more than the guy next to you means You're a Godd*mn liability Just because you do your job With a Laptop and the other guy does his with a computer (Hint: DifferentlY) doesn't mean you're somehow more viable because of it.

Same goes for THF, Its a Treasure Hunter, but without TH, It becomes a DD, because its the only role it can fall back on. Being Second best doesn't mean you suck or you shouldn't live, It just makes you a liability.

Thats pretty much been my entire argument, Anywhere TH isn't raging needed, THF is nothing but a liability.

And here you (again) GREATLY exaggerate the ball and chain that thf is to a group. Yes. By replacing a good DD with a good thf your group goes from beating down 100 with time to spare to timing out on floor 50. Thats EXACLTY how the game works. /facepalm.

Yes, It was an exaggeration, Should i be face-palming and crying because you brought up an example of you making 1.9mil Dollars, despite it being an Exaggeration?

No. of course the numbers are exaggerated, because I'm not sitting here Collecting Data from every nyzul group anymore than you're asking your Millionaire buddies about their income and job functions.

Move the f*ck on about it, I'm not picking apart your wild exaggerations. Want a more realistic Example? Ditching a THF for a real DD will likely net you an Average 2 more "Climbs". Meaning you go from clearing 15 floors, to 17, Which is anywhere from 6-18 Floors depending on the RNG Favors. There, a Closer Estimate. Its not unreasonable to think the killspeed gain from a Good DD over a "Meh" will resort in just 2 more Jumps.

Contrary to your mindset, i AM OK knowing that I have to work a little more to get the same returns as other jobs on the DD front and that my pinnacle of performance is lower than the pinnacle of other jobs.

THe problem is, no matter how hard you work, you're never going to achieve the same returns as an equally geared or skilled DD, you as a Thief offer nothing to a party that keeps you useful in a group situation. Will Power isn't suddenly going to put a JA or JT into your THF That makes you a strong Asset to the group.

The question isnt "what is the the BEST at" for me. The question is "Can thf be a useful member of a team to complete an objective".

Thats not my question at all. Of course THF can met the objective, a group of Melee WHMs can climb up a few floors in neo Nyzul, doesn't mean their a smart choice.

That is very different than "In an imaginary world where I get pick of the litter from a menagerie of equivalent players and equivalent gear of all jobs, would i ever pick thf".

Selecting a group of skilled players based on jobs isn't an imaginary world. Maybe you're surounded by people who suck, but its possible to find a group of intelligent people who know their jobs, gear well, and play well, and in that world, THF is a liability to anything but the most needed of TH'd events.

Like say, Killing Behemoth or shooting for an upgrade item, a "one pop shot" type deal where you want the best possible chance at something.

Unlike all of the current endgame content.

One represents the game world, the other represents the hypothetical.

Both are hypothetical, Don't kid yourself chief.

That is what i mean when i say i dont give a shit if its not perfect.

Okay, You Enjoy being unique in no way and having to deck yourself out in relic to compete with the mediocre supply of bandwagon DDs.

The job has ENOUGH potential to BECOME an asset.

Danger; Opinion Zone.

I have to work harder to reach that status, but im fine with that. To take your car example i see it more like this.

Again I should tell you, You "working harder" and "believing in the heart of the card' Doesn't make THF a good job, It just means you have very loose guidelines on what you think is a good job, or what an "Asset" means.

ThfMobile has different models. Base only goes 20MPH. Mid level trim can go 50 MPH. Sports edition can get 80 MPH. WarMobile base is 40MPH, mid is 70MPH and sport model is 100MPH. BrdMobile only goes 30MPH but comes with 50 gallons of jet fuel it gives to everyone and then attaches a grappling hook to the WarMobile to keep up.

So basically you're telling me what i've said a thousand times, a good THF can out-DD a shitty "real" melee? Yah, I know

My goal is to get from point A to point B in 2 hours. The distance is 140 miles. I need a 2 people to go minimum of 70 so i need a Sport model Thf or a mid grade War. Both get me to where i want to go. 2 premium wars would just do it faster and pick up a chick on the way with their glowing epeen and flames spewing out the exhaust.

I'd rather pick up hot chicks on the way, just sayin'. A glowing Epeen Sounds fun.

Thf is 'fast enough' to participate if you get the high end model. Obviously WarMobile is a better car. You can go faster with less money, but If i just like the design of ThfMobile and want to make it work, and can make it work, who gives a shit. Its Adequate.

Unfortunately, Not every race favors THF, Maybe stuff like dynamis may be a "Speed cap of 70", But in Reality, If you chose a Car that goes 80MPH max in a Nascar event, you're a retard. Same can be said to bringing a THF to Voidwatch or Einherjar/Divine Might(At 75 cap) or Neo-Nyzul Post Update.

When the name of the game is speed, Choosing a slower car just isn't smart. You're free to do it, But I'll be over here running laps around you, and I'm not going to be ashamed I picked the faster car, and got more done.

Would I mind getting a turbo charger put in for free? Heck no! Am I going to DEMAND the dealership give me one
to keep up with WarMobile? Nope.

I've never demanded a single thing, At best, I've pointed out THF is in need of an adjustment. Its in dire need of an adjustment, So are a lot of jobs, THF is no more important. I don't demand anything, I merely request and propose ideas.

Is a thf slowing down my convoy to point B? Yeah.
Will we get there in the time required anyway? Yeah.
Could ThfMobile be better? Yeah.

Something we agree on, THF is mediocre and has a lot of room for improvement and offers nothing unique to a party.

Should it just drive off the road and explode in a burst of flames because it doesnt deserve to be on the road with WarMobile because it isnt as fast and therefore has NO VALUE AT ALL?

No.

Something else we agree on. Still, Again i say. Coming in second place, While maybe you look up at night at your silver trophy and smile, Doesn't mean that you should stop trying to suggest ways for your pit team to improve your car and slowly recognize your own failings.

Got it?

If i can work hard and make 1.9 million and im black, but my friend works just as hard but makes 2mil because hes white and gets paid more, is it fair? no. Can we both live happily ever after as rich fat bastards? Fuck yeah.You can spend your time fighting the great injustice that we should all get paid equally. I personanly cant be arsed to fight for truth and justice when im doing MORE than fine right where I am. 1.9 is 'enough' and 'adequate' for me to live happily knowing I can still make more than 99% of everyone else. Thf not being #1 doesnt mean i cant be happy with the job class even if its not 100% 'fair' to me. Im sorry if you feel useless if your not #1 at something. I actually can be happy being 'pretty good' at everything even if im not the best at anything.

You won't fight for an injustice because you're content with being paid less for your skin color, okay, See, As above, Our paths differ here.

Personally, I want to be able to make the same money as the white guy, But I'll never be able to do that no matter how hard i try unless I tell my manager i want a raise.

And BTW, Your analogy only works if you toss in the fact that The Home you want 1.95mil, Which paints a better picture of THF. Because Then Your White friend can buy the Home, And live happily in it, While you sit on the street hoping someone comes along as says, "Well Ge, I guess i can give you this home".

Because again, While THF Can perform nicely, Its not living In any of the houses you gotta pay 1.95mil for, Because those houses only belong to the whites, and no amount of you Willing your way into one is going to get you in one of those houses unless someone takes pity on you.

The same way you being a good THF will never, ever, change the absolutely limitations of the job.