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  1. #1
    Player JeremyCarbuncle's Avatar
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    Feb 2012
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    6
    Character
    Jeremy
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99

    Only way to effectively fix emnity while keeping game balance.

    Only way to effectively fix emnity while keeping game balance.

    We all know the emnity system is 100% broken.
    I am main PLD and also play ninja, and realise It is impossible to tank no matter how well you maintain emnity because of the emnity cap. (that is easily reached, and fast)
    The problem with it is.. once it is reached the only way to make it go down is to die.
    My recomendation to Square Enix dev team is to raise the emnity cap for everyone, and make emnity degrade at a decent rate when not performing any sort of emnity gaining actions. That way the DD will still suffer a penalty when they draw to much emnity, but will be allowed to lose some of the monsters agression by backing off for a while.
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player Meiisein's Avatar
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    Feb 2012
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    6
    Character
    Meiisein
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I don't think it is so easily resolved. I am about to post an example below that will show my time in the game and hopefully my point a bit.

    Old style pld tending to tank with a war sub. Primary targets were often very high damaging monsters that had you have defender up at all times. This style of tank gained hate almost exclusively through the use of abilities, namely provoke and the spell flash. This style of tanking worked for its time frame quite well. If you were to try that now not only would the paladin not be holding hate to modern melee they would also be contributing no appreciable damage.

    The issue this point brings up has nothing to do with the cap. It could be 10. It could be 10,000,000. It's all about comparing the rate of hate gain and loss of the tank to the damage dealers. Yes the damage dealers can manually slow down to keep their hate under that of the tanks but very VERY little content of the game in it's current state rewards this action. I think the problem is less to do with the mechanics of hate and more to do with the game CONTENT.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    656
    Character
    Duelle
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    I'll paste something I suggested elsewhere, as it is relevant to this and was somewhat PLD-focused:
    Best bet would probably be to give PLD an enmity+ trait that acts as a multiplier to damage dealt by the PLD, then scrap "+enmity" on gear and turn it into "-enmity decay" (caps @ 20%). Atonement would probably have to be redesigned if you did that, though.
    In conjunction with removing the hate cap, there is the issue if building hate and somehow having hate generated by the tank decay at a slower rate than that of everyone else.

    The above I feel would work best because we're not using a combat model where abilities are spammed back to back to generate aggro, and instead PLD is at the mercy of cooldown timers and hoping one crit too many doesn't put them below someone else on the hate table. Improving damage mitigation would be the other half of the issue to be resolved, but I can't really think of how to go about it with the seeming emphasis on -PDT tank gear has these days.
    (2)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  4. #4
    Player Zerich's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    502
    Character
    Taruina
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    just give PLD cure potency %+ on everything
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player JeremyCarbuncle's Avatar
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    Feb 2012
    Posts
    6
    Character
    Jeremy
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Raising the emnity cap would help a little, is why i mentioned it. I was leaning more toward making hate decay for people not making any sort of emnity gaining actions though. When i play THF I usualy only run in on a boss for SA and TA because it is realy easy for me to pull hate, no matter who is tanking. So i tay away.. Problem with that is, the monster eventualy comes running after me because my hate does not go down when i stay away from the monster. it just keeps building untill the monster eventualy leaves the tank. and That, in my opinion is a broken system.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    656
    Character
    Duelle
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyCarbuncle View Post
    Raising the emnity cap would help a little, is why i mentioned it. I was leaning more toward making hate decay for people not making any sort of emnity gaining actions though. When i play THF I usualy only run in on a boss for SA and TA because it is realy easy for me to pull hate, no matter who is tanking. So i tay away.. Problem with that is, the monster eventualy comes running after me because my hate does not go down when i stay away from the monster. it just keeps building untill the monster eventualy leaves the tank. and That, in my opinion is a broken system.
    Raising the cap creates a situation where it either takes a little longer to get the same result we get now, or the tank never loses hate (if the cap raise affects only the person tanking). That's why I suggested removing the cap, fiddling with enmity decay, make enmity bonuses inherent to the tank (as in, built in without the gear hooplah) and instead use gear and possibly damage mitigation as the way the tank ensures both survivability and slower hate decay over time. I know it sounds complicated, but the hate system is farked to the degree that big changes are needed, IMO.

    Edit: Not to mention, I feel it would lead to better interaction between the tank and classes that deal in spike damage, which is where the hate system's issues are most evident. I do play a DRK, so I've seen that side as well.
    (1)
    Last edited by Duelle; 03-06-2012 at 06:17 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  7. #7
    Player Saenomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    54
    Character
    Saenomo
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    What would be nice is a point scale of some sort. For example, a monster's hate is divisible across party members. Imagine a mob has an enmity pool of 1000 points (or 10,000 or whatever). You generate enmity as you do now, but only up to the maximum of that pool. When all the enmity is claimed, it begins to shift between people based on who is doing what.

    Numbers are just for demonstration, not meant to represent actual numbers in game.

    Party Member A (Tank: 500 Enmity): Uses Provoke (Enmity+180, others equally lose 60 each (or drop to 0 and the rest is split))
    Party Member B (DD: 200 Enmiy): Keeps swinging (Enmity+30, everyone else loses 10 each (or drop to 0 and the rest is split))
    Party Member C (Mage: 250 Enmity): Nukes the mob (Enmity+90, everyone else loses 30 each (or drop to 0 and the rest is split))
    Party Member D (Healer: 50 Enmity): Heals the tank (Enmity+30, everyone else loses 10 (or drop to 0 and the rest is split))
    *You performed an action, so you need to remain on the hate list, but you can be even with 0 of the monster's enmity.
    *In the event of a death, the collected enmity would shift back into the monsters pool to be gained normally.

    So after that round of actions, enmity would look like this: A(620), B(120), C(260), D(0). Since D would have been at -20, when C had cast their nuke, they are instead at 0 and other 20 lost enmity is split between A and B. Imagine now, the tank dies due to some crazy hit from the mob (Remember, death drops you from the hate list and now you are below someone with even 0 enmity). The enmity board will look like this: A(X), B(120), C(260), D(0).

    Enmity erasing moves would apply similarly to death and the enmity lost would be put back on the mob to be gained normally. A thief's abilities (Accomplice, Collaborator, and Trick Attack) would become even more useful in a setup like this as they could readily shift hate wherever they want by first cutting one party members hate and then dropping a large hit onto another person.


    ~~~

    I think this is the basis for a system that will allow enmity to be better maintained instead of a capping system that we have now. However, I have really never seen the problem myself. My tank tends to hold hate, even over my blue spam casting unless I'm crazy about it and even then, they can usually manage very well.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player Babekeke's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    2,273
    Having read all of these suggestions, I think the OP is the only one that would actually work.

    Raise the cap = a PLD with CDC only needs a few seconds on the mob to get a WS and a flash off before they will be able to keep hate ahead of everyone else. Especially if they have a THF TAing them too.

    VW shows us that a good PLD can keep hate. It's only once the DDs hit the hate cap as well, that the PLD struggles. Raising the cap 10 fold would mean it takes 10 times as long to reach, and little content goes on for that length of time.

    -enmity decay gear wouldn't help in the slightest, since the DDs enmity isn't decaying whilst they are hitting the mob. Every time a DD hits a mob at hate cap, they're going to turn the mob, no matter how slowly the PLDs enmity is decaying. Removing the hate cap would effectively be the same as increasing it tenfold on 99% of content.

    Cure potency + on everything? Only allows the PLD to cap hate faster, but won't alleviate the problems of being at hate cap.

    The point scale would lead to MNKs tanking. I don't think you appreciate how fast and hard they hit lol. If member B in that example were a MNK that hit Triple Attack on both hands, and a Kick attack, they would have got 210 enmity and reduced everyone (including the tank) by 70. And probably got another attack round in before the PLDs JA lock wore off.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player Saenomo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    54
    Character
    Saenomo
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    As I said, the numbers were simply for demonstration, not to represent the actual values of each type of hit. SE has a set of enmity generation numbers already in play that worked well and they only need to adjust slightly to the formula I suggested which keeps enmity generation possible even after everyone is sitting at maximum enmity. The numbers in no way represent how much enmity you generate in a round accurately as I'm not familiar with the inner math of the coding. I also did not say that was one hit from the DD, merely the enmity gain in a round, possibly generated from multiple swings and any enmity affecting gear/abilities.

    Either way, it was merely a suggestion on possible adjustments to handle capping by creating an enmity shifting system to alleviate the problem of everyone being capped. If enmity shifts like I suggested, there would always be a way to keep control by a tank as their enmity gain would be a loss from everyone else in the group.

    It's similar to a street fight, in a four on one fight, you will generally turn your attention to the one causing the most irritation to you and you have a limit to how much attention you can pay to everyone at once, hence why one person's gain, is a loss to everyone else. Sure, I wouldn't doubt a smart mob would target a healer and take them out first, that is typically what I do in the game, but generally, it's a solid concept once you factor in accurate enmity generation using the current system instead of arbitrary numbers I threw together.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    First and foremost you need to understand enmity. The cap isn't 10,000, its 20,000. 10,000 from CE and another 10,000 from VE, different abilities give you different values of each. VE goes away at 60 units per second, CE only goes away when you get hit. Provoke is exactly 1800 VE and 1 CE, at 60 CE per second it takes 30s for the hate from provoke to fade away. This is why Provoke is pretty much worthless for keeping hate, only good at spiking it at low levels.

    The real issue is that the hate gain formulas greatly favor doing damage for CE and VE. Damage is worth more then Provoke, Flash and healing combined. Just imagine if every time the MNK hits the monster, its a miniature provoke and you get the idea. DD's can hit the 10K CE cap within one to two minutes, sometimes faster if they have buffs / temps. The VE hate cap is reached shortly thereafter hindered only because it's slowly bleeding away while CE isn't. Once at cap keeping hate is merely a matter of dealing enough damage that you make up for the 60VE / second loss and whatever you lose from the NM smacking you. And thus FFXI's problem is found, a MNK's fists, WAR's Great Axe or a SAM's Great Katana are better hate generators then a Paladin's Sword and all their combined abilities.

    Fixing this issue would for starters require the PLD to have some sort of Enmity Bonus trait to assist in enmity generation. They would also need a trait such that enmity decays at half rate on a PLD. And finally the damage to hate formula needs to be redone, it's balanced for level 50~60 content. Until these are done a PLD will never be able to compete with a WAR / MNK / SAM / DD for hate control.
    (1)

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