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Thread: Reflect

  1. #61
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    652
    Character
    Kensagaku
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Okay I haven't read a lot of the thread, but I remember talking about similar effects in another thread, and I have my own proposition that might make the whole Reflect difficulties a bit easier to handle similar to the one from the other thread:

    1) Reflect would be a single-target cast on any individual, can be made AoE by Accession.
    2) Reflect would counter up to X number of spells, where X is based on your Enhancing Skill (meaning that RDM, with higher Enhancing, would rock this, but WHM and SCH could still get access and use it competently). Maybe like 1~3 spells to prevent it from being OP? Or more, but would require a longer recast time because monsters only cast spells so often unless under Chainspell/Manafont.
    3) For limitations, reflecting spells would be limited to player-only spells to avoid stuff like Death and certain -gas from being countered. This would provide some aspect of balance.
    4) For AoE spells, the original target is the only Reflect that will activate; if a party with Reflect on is hit by an AoE spell, the original target will use up one "use" of Reflect (see #2) while the spell is negated for the rest of the party. An AoE spell reflected will hit the target that cast it and any eligible mobs around it (example: during Voidwatch, you won't hit non-VW mobs nearby).
    5) For damage/effectiveness of reflected spells, I'd say make it based on the player's stats, if that's not too complicated. Simply put that would prevent this from becoming overpowered while staying a viable defensive strategy. A melee with mediocre magical stats wouldn't reflect much damage, but would be protected from spells to an extent, while a mage who might get hit in the backline or even in front (the RDMs that do melee, or a WHM or SCH running in to AoE a buff like Protectra or Stoneskin-ga) can reflect it with more potency.


    And to cover the issues that were given:

    Reflecting Spells Cast On You

    I suggest that player-originating spells ignore Reflect, simply because we normally cannot nuke/enfeeble/etc each other during battle. However, we wouldn't want Cures, etc to be bounced back at the user when a melee is nearly dead from physical attacks, because that would make this a very weak spell to use unless you have a tank who can turtle up enough to take hits until Reflect wears/is canceled.

    Random reflection and AoE Spell reflection

    Don't make reflection random, then. Have a reflected spell hit the target that cast it. Single-target spells will only affect the one who cast, but AoE spells will hit all eligible targets within range of the original caster (See #4, above). This includes debuffs as well as elemental spells, and with being limited to player-only spells, still requires that the mages be on their toes to handle certain situations (-ga debuffs, etc).

    Effect animation

    For this I'd recommend a simple shimmer effect (if possible) on the character who is being targeted, and the actual spell animation removed from the players. Since it would only be "targeting" one character with AoE damage hitting those around him, only the targeted character would need this effect, reducing lag on the server. Follow this by the spell animation being cast on the original caster, and in the chatlog something like:

    "Monster A casts Fire IV."
    "Reflect! Monster A takes X points of damage."

    Stats

    I can see the issue with this, hence why I made a limiter as above (see #2), which along with a decently long recast time (I'd say... 1:00~1:30, perhaps? I don't recall off the top of my head the average time difference between monsters casting spells, but it should be within 3~5 of their spells to be balanced, I think) would probably balance out this spell enough to make it potentially effective if used properly without making it overpowered.

    And to mention stats, the damage of the reflected spell, as I suggested above in #5, should be based on the target that is reflecting the spell. If your character has low INT/elemental skill, your reflection of a nuke isn't going to be very potent, but you're still protected from it, giving you a defensive option without overpowering the damage on it. Mages, on the other hand, could make more potent use of the reflected spells, but would put themselves in danger if they're on the frontline with melee so it's more of a protection against backline nukes.
    (2)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  2. #62
    Player tyrantsyn's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    Character
    Tyrantsyn
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Difficulties:

    Reflecting spells you cast on yourself
    Well, Shadows from utsusemi don't absorb incoming buff's or heal's. Are we not looking at the same thing just with an added effect of returning the spell? Of course this idea goes along the line's of making it like a utsusemi/Blink style spell. Which just seem's to make more sense.

    Having it as a constant effect with a chance to reflect doesn't sound bad, but. I see something like that being another gear set build by adding % into the mix to up your chance to have the effect trigger. And the last thing any one needs is another build that take's up precious inventory space.
    (3)

  3. #63
    Player Elexia's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok/Phoenix
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    Character
    Kanikou
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    COR Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeroe View Post
    Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>
    Over on Tera Americans complained about mobs respawning in 20 seconds.

    20. Seconds.

    I would ignore that player base too lol, but seriously, this is a Japanese company with a Japanese development team. Do you really think American based companies go out of their way to listen to chinese or french players? I can bet you the grand majority don't.
    (2)
    Dark Knight ~ 90: Yes I actually use a Scythe.

  4. #64
    Player Merton9999's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Mordru
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    Camate, this is VERY encouraging news. I am frankly stunned to even see a mention of a possibly interesting spell addition these days on the board from the reps. When I saw it on the dev tracker list I got very warm inside, and it has ALMOST washed the horrible taste of Gravity II from my mouth.

    I haven't played in months but I'd come back for a couple months to try this spell in every possible event. That is, if it goes to RDM or SCH. I wouldn't be mad if SMN got it, but I wouldn't really care about it either. I'd be infuriated if it went to WHM. Infuriated. Mad. Horrified. That kitten-punching dude would have a partner.

    As far as the implementation, I'd be disappointed if it turned into a cycle spell. I see this happening if it is a long lasting buff with a random firing chance, like Blink, and didn't reflect friendly spells. You can keep the immunity to friendly spells, but as another poster mentioned, I'd like to see it work like stun, with a 100% activation rate, instant-cast, long recast and very short duration. Rather than maintaining another cycle on RDM, I'd like it to require paying close attention and be coordinated with stuns. I'll second the nomination for a Runic ability for RDM too with a similar behavior.

    Also, through gear, merits or whatever, I'd like to see an effect from FFIX, where a reflected spell would be more powerful that the original when reflected back to the caster. This would give me some reason to really care about using Reflect rather than stun.

    In the end I just want this to be a useful, worthwhile spell addition with interesting applications, and for it to go to a job that actually needs something now.
    (2)

  5. #65
    Player Francisco's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    Character
    Francisco
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    I like the idea of a fast cast, long recast reflect spell, where it reflects the next spell... kind of a quick thing you could just throw up... I like this for RDM. It might be funny for a RDM to use Chainspell-Reflect instead of Chainspell-Stun...

    I also like, additionally, the idea of a "Auto-Reflect" job trait, where there is a ~5-10% chance to Reflect a spell...

    As for animations, I think there should be some "transition" in the effect...

    Monster cast animation > Shield type animation on the Reflecting character appears briefly > spell effect displays on casting monster.

    Here's a question though... Will Dispel remove Reflect, or will it get Reflected?
    (3)


    "How do I lock threads?"

    Consume the contents of a bottle of Extra Strength Tylonel and then drink a beer. Soon, all threads will be locked.

  6. #66
    Player Tesahade's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    45
    Character
    Niflheim
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kensagaku View Post
    1) Reflect would be a single-target cast on any individual, can be made AoE by Accession.
    2) Reflect would counter up to X number of spells, where X is based on your Enhancing Skill (meaning that RDM, with higher Enhancing, would rock this, but WHM and SCH could still get access and use it competently).
    Rdm and Sch both have B+ enhancing magic and as for gear rdm has a with Duelist's hands +2, and Estoqueur's feet +2, cap = +24(slot with competition the competition is subtracted to show the lead it has over sch)
    Sch has Savant's Bonnet +2 and Treatise Kirin's Pole(+10 aug)= +24(slots without competition that a rdm can use)
    You can get a total of 505 enhancing magic (unless i missed a piece of gear) on both jobs. meaning 1 is not better then the other unless you account for sch having the power to double duration of the effects and make the spell AoE
    (1)

  7. #67
    Player Kensagaku's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    652
    Character
    Kensagaku
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    On the assumption of no inventory limits for this, RDM can go with:

    Sub: Fulcio Grip (+3)
    Head: Zenith Crown +1 (+8 with good augment)
    Neck: Colossus or Enhancing Torque (+7)
    Ears: Augmenting Earring (+3)
    Body: Duelist's Tabard +2 (+15)
    Hands: Duelist's Gloves +2 (+18)
    Back: Estoqueur's Cape (+6)
    Waist: Olympus Sash (+5)
    Legs: Portent Pants or Warlock's Tights/+1 (+15)
    Feet: Estoqueur's Houseaux +2 (+15)
    Total: +95

    Versus SCH:

    Main: Kirin's Pole (+12 w/ good augment)
    Sub: Fulcio Grip (+3)
    Ammo: Savant's Treatise (+4)
    Head: Savant's Bonnet +2 (+10)
    Neck: Colossus or Enhancing Torque (+7)
    Ears: Augmenting Earring (+3)
    Body: Anhur Robe (+12)
    Hands: Augur's Gloves (+5)
    Back: Merciful Cape (+5)
    Waist: Olympus Sash (+5)
    Legs: Portent Pants (+15)
    Feet: Rubeus Boots (+10)
    Total: +91

    RDM does pull a little ahead, but I acknowledge your point on that.
    (1)
    [Kensagaku - formerly of Kujata] - http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kensagaku

  8. #68
    Player Quetzacoatl's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    527
    Character
    Quetzacoatl
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Krashport View Post
    Ok, well back in the day RDM was known for refresh A.k.a The refresh-whore if by chance RDM does get Reflect it will not make or break the Job.. RDM needs more then Reflect-whore, Just seems like a lot "Not all" Thinking this spell and or ability whatever it is going to be going to fix RDM. Me personally don't think it's really needed fun yeah! but not needed.. Also it's not going to help RDM any. Yeah it's pretty cool seeing this might finally come to FFXI but that's about it, If anything I bet PUP automaton will get it then we all wait for RDM to get Reflect II.
    okay, so...what does this have to do with BLM? Also...
    (2)

  9. #69
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kensagaku View Post
    On the assumption of no inventory limits for this
    There are varying amounts of difficulty to reach the magic 500 mark but Red Mage, White Mage and Scholar can all reach the cap. Paladin and Black Mage can reach something a little over 460 with the right subjob.
    (1)

  10. #70
    Player Krashport's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    640
    Character
    Krash
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl View Post
    okay, so...what does this have to do with BLM? Also...
    I came to really think about blm with Reflect, It wouldn't work.. I think cause BLM has Mana-wall, as it is kinda like a Reflect but the Magical and Physical Damage goes into the BLMs mp pool not back at the target.

    Reflect Magical Damage > Target.
    BLM - Mana-Wall Magical and Physical> MP Pool.
    RDM has Phalanx and a very strong Stoneskin.
    PLD has Phalanx and Reprisal.
    SCH has a lot of pieces from other Jobs.
    This being said leading us back to White Mage and maybe to some of the "New" Avatars.
    (3)
    Last edited by Krashport; 02-26-2012 at 02:58 PM.

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