[dev1087] Job Adjustments: White Mage

[Camiie]

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.
2. You deny the above, and play from scratch working your way up to gearing your character and each job class you wish to be.

#1, I believe most players now wish this happened. If anything takes longer than a few hours to do they get furious, no matter what it is.

#2, I do not believe most players today would choose this, even though it would be my choice today. I absolutely hate leveling, but I don't believe I should have access to a job if I don't work at it. I don't want things handed to me, period.

I haven't seen anyone asking for #1 and you thinking that they are is just absurd. I see people use this argument a lot, and it's always ridiculous. You are aware there are many levels of difficulty in between "everything handed to you" and "extremely difficult to obtain" are you not? Your #1 and #2 options don't seem to indicate that you are.

Just because someone doesn't want a spell to be "extremely difficult to obtain" doesn't mean they don't want a challenge. It doesn't mean they want things handed to them. Just because someone doesn't choose "Nightmare" difficulty in a video game doesn't mean they want to Game Shark their way through it.

Remember this is SE here. The last time I heard them talk out loud about things being "extremely difficult to obtain" was when relics were introduced. Is it really so terrible that people want to make sure a spell isn't in the same category as an at 75 cap relic?

[Kalilla]

I haven't seen anyone asking for #1 and you thinking that they are is just absurd. I see people use this argument a lot, and it's always ridiculous. You are aware there are many levels of difficulty in between "everything handed to you" and "extremely difficult to obtain" are you not? Your #1 and #2 options don't seem to indicate that you are.

Just because someone doesn't want a spell to be "extremely difficult to obtain" doesn't mean they don't want a challenge. It doesn't mean they want things handed to them. Just because someone doesn't choose "Nightmare" difficulty in a video game doesn't mean they want to Game Shark their way through it.

Remember this is SE here. The last time I heard them talk out loud about things being "extremely difficult to obtain" was when relics were introduced. Is it really so terrible that people want to make sure a spell isn't in the same category as an at 75 cap relic?

That's the thing though, there are posts in this thread where people have said that all spells should be easy to get, because they are spells.

Even going to the point of saying they won't be accepted by parties anymore for not having a spell that is nothing but a perk. I know the difference between being handed something and extremely difficult, but the fact is so many people want spells to be super easy to get so they can use them there is no difficulty in getting any of them anymore.

Why aren't there spells that are ex? I really wish to know the answer to this question. I don't like that every single scroll could be bought off the AH. Sure, you did the work to get the gil but that doesn't translate to doing the work to get the scroll at all anymore.

The only challenge getting scrolls now are to log into the game and check your nearest AH to give your gil to the counter. That sure is some challenge right there.

[Camiie]

That's the thing though, there are posts in this thread where people have said that all spells should be easy to get, because they are spells.

That's fine by me. The challenge should be more about using the spells and getting the most out of them than obtaining them.

Even going to the point of saying they won't be accepted by parties anymore for not having a spell that is nothing but a perk.

Do you really think this won't happen? Even now there are shouts for VW that are Emp. only. There are a lot of "leaders" who will only accept what they percieve to be the best. There are also a lot of "leaders" who want their groups to carry them. They expect others to do the work so they don't have to.

I know the difference between being handed something and extremely difficult, but the fact is so many people want spells to be super easy to get so they can use them there is no difficulty in getting any of them anymore.

Like I said, let the challenge come from using them properly and to the best of one's ability. Managing MP or enmity. Using the right timing for the encounter. Knowing when where and how to use it rather than when is it going to drop, where does it come from, and how am I going to get it.

[Genoxd]

Making spells "extremely hard to obtain" is like making a melee's job abilities to enhance their skills "extremely hard to obtain". Melee jobs get their job abilities which they use to enhance their role in groups naturally, making a spell which mages need to use to enhance their role be "extremely hard to obtain" is not right. please fix this...

While I wont agree or disagree, Empyrean/Relic WSs are not naturally acquired. Everyone can get them, but not everyone has them. There is no reason to not include unique and powerful spells. I for one would love some potent powerful magic that is hard to get (SMN in particular.)

[Economizer]

Why aren't there spells that are ex?

[Kalilla]

That's fine by me. The challenge should be more about using the spells and getting the most out of them than obtaining them.

I just don't see why there can't be both easy and difficult spells to obtain.

Magic is about researching and practicing the skill. Scrolls provide the resource material for you to learn, and using the magic in that class provides you the experience needed to master the spells in that field. This game follows this rule, yet the research material can just be bought with 10k here and 100k there, maybe a rare 500k-1m scroll, but that rarely happens.

Why can't there be room for rare scrolls that are only EX? That makes perfect sense in the world of magic. How could the world of Vana'diel not have any lost magic? Nothing horribly difficult to master? I'm not even a magic freak in games and I wonder this about FFXI. Logically to me, there should be rare scrolls. When we started our jobs, the scrolls of course would be cheap and affordable. As you leveled up then logically the price of your research should go up as well. We are at the maximum level after 8-10 years depending on where, and we still have scrolls that are 10k.

That doesn't make sense.

EX scrolls for quests would be smart, would be logical, would make sense. Going through dungeons to find a missing scroll in a quest is what you should be doing, yet we just have everything handed to us as long as we have 10-100k in our pockets, and with how easy gil is to make these days that isn't bringing a challenge at all. There should be no mage that has mastered the job collecting all the resources in the world of Vana'diel just by giving an AH counter 10k here and 10k there. It is really stupid how it works in my opinion.

Thank you, that is an EX scroll that you have to quest for. That is what I'm talking about.

Do you really think this won't happen? Even now there are shouts for VW that are Emp. only. There are a lot of "leaders" who will only accept what they percieve to be the best. There are also a lot of "leaders" who want their groups to carry them. They expect others to do the work so they don't have to.

I've said this before, but if you are upset that a group rejected you then stop being upset. They are rejecting you because they think they are some type of elitist in games, yet they are planning on having players die. If you are being rejected from groups because you don't have a 2-5 mil scroll that reduces the weakness timer by 2 minutes, they are planning on wiping. A lot.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and move on. They aren't worth your time if they are planning on loosing anyways. Having 1-2 raise spells is more than enough to get people up who made mistakes, not 4 different raise spells. I understand why people didn't get Raise III. It's expensive, and you just don't need it anymore. Guess what, Arise isn't going to be any different. It has a lot of nice perks that go along with it, but it isn't going to break your WHM if you don't have it.

If you are confident in your abilities as WHM and get rejected by a group because you don't have yet another raise spell when they shoudln't even be planning on dying, move on. They aren't worth your time anyways and you should be thankful that they rejected you right from the start instead of wasting 1-3 hours of your time surprising you that... they all suck and are wiping to something they shouldn't be wiping to. No amount of Arise is going to fix that, if they are going to willingly die like that you can't do anything.

Like I said, let the challenge come from using them properly and to the best of one's ability. Managing MP or enmity. Using the right timing for the encounter. Knowing when where and how to use it rather than when is it going to drop, where does it come from, and how am I going to get it.

There is no challenge in using any of the Raise spells. If you are using Raise at all you either could not do your job correctly, they did not do their job correctly, or the monster instant killed them. Most of the time, it is the first from what I see as a WHM. Mistakes happen, and the battle can move fast. If you can't handle the situation you should have backup, and if they can't handle it with you then it isn't your fault because the person dying is doing something stupid probably.

A dead melee is the worst melee, and if the tank is falling then they either aren't doing something correctly or the monster is designed to overpower players. In that situation, you should know what is the reason.

With that said, there is no skill in using the spell Raise. There is no challenge in using the spell Raise. You really shouldn't be using the spell Raise... unless the situation calls for it (death spell that couldn't be stunned, so on). I know a great deal about WHM spells yet I have no clue in my mind how I can make the Raise spell challenging. I don't, I can't think of any part of it that is.

Trying to cast it and time it right in the middle of a battle?
You shouldn't be doing this. You have backup for a reason and if you don't then they should have reraise items. A WHM, no matter how skilled they are, can't just stop their job, ignore their entire group, and get you up. Yes I know that it can be done very easily, I'm saying you shouldn't be the one doing it, ever! I don't care if you have been looking at the count down for 3 minutes, you should be asking the support jobs to raise you, not the WHM (or remember to bring/use your reraise scrolls/items).

The WHM's duty is to keep their alliance alive, unless they are assigned a single party. Even then they should be throwing raises to support other groups (something I almost never see with WHM's). If you stop, and cast raise for 10, 15, 20 seconds, you are taking your attention away from the group. You are what keeps your group up and running, without you it is nothing but evasive survival and the MP pools of support healers and paladins. If you are raising, you should have 1-2 other WHM's there helping. If you are one of the main healers of the WHM, you tell one of the WHM's who isn't in a main healing role to raise them. If you don't have spare WHM's you ask a support job to raise them. If you don't have support then you let them stay dead until the fight is over, or make sure the team can handle it without you so you can cast raise. In that last point the person dead should of had reraise, everyone should have reraise. If they died after getting up that happens, but Arise can't fix this issue 100% of the time due to its casting/recast requirements.

Arise is not going to suddenly fix all of WHM's raising issues. It is a nice perk, but with the requirements to cast the spell it is an emergency spell. Arise does not have the ability to change the course of battles unless it is a Tank or WHM or someone that needs to proc unweakened. Melee aren't going to change it, and if you are timing out then you have much bigger issues in your group setup than one of your WHM's not having the spell Arise.

Enmity on Raise spells isn't an issue, and you shouldn't be worrying about it. If you are walking away from your group for 20-30 seconds to raise someone, possibly even putting yourself within AoE damage, you should not be worrying about MP management. Even if you aren't, it's not a spell you are going to cast all the time. You just can't, unless its 1 person dead. You are going to be using other raise spells along with it, and using Arise in emergency situations. MP management and enmity are never an issue for WHM when it comes to raising. You have walked out of your role as healer to raise someone, unless you need to rest then MP management and Enmity aren't even an issue.

tl;dr: If you are casting raise, you are leaving your duties as WHM to spend 10-20 seconds to raise someone. During this time you shouldn't be concerned with MP management (if so use a different raise) nor enmity (?). If you drop your duties as WHM during a fight, you have to have backup otherwise you are leaving everyone to stay alive on their own without your help and anything can happen in 20 seconds that can cause your group to loose if you are doing nothing but casting raise on someone who can't even help for another 3-5 minutes. Arise isn't going to change situation where you time out either, your problems are much deeper than having a WHM on your team that doesn't have Arise if you are timing out.

Arise is a very nice perk spell, but it will not break WHM's who haven't learned the spell. It will never break WHM, because it in the end is just another raise spell, although a very fancy one but that's it.

[Arcon]

That's fine by me. The challenge should be more about using the spells and getting the most out of them than obtaining them.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. As you said, it's fine by you. We've already established that not everyone sees eye-to-eye on this.

Do you really think this won't happen?

No. Empyreans are an entirely different animal. Having an Empyrean usually makes you better in terms of damage and hence, usefulness to the party. This is nothing but a luxury spell. A bonus. Great if your WHMs have it, doesn't matter if not.

Like I said, let the challenge come from using them properly and to the best of one's ability. Managing MP or enmity. Using the right timing for the encounter. Knowing when where and how to use it rather than when is it going to drop, where does it come from, and how am I going to get it.

That's like saying armor shouldn't be hard to obtain, because the difficulty should not be limited by the availability of armor, but by our knowledge and use of it. And yes, this time it is actually the same argument. Just like I don't want people to be able to buy everything with money even if they suck and wouldn't be able to obtain it by themselves (something that, sadly, is currently the case for almost every item in the game), I also wouldn't want people to have every spell if they're just a mule that follows one guy around aimlessly all the time. And don't get me wrong, I know that this isn't easy to change. Because even if someone isn't buyable, there would be people offering mercenary services for people to obtain said items. Voidwatch was one way to go about it, because people all had their own loot pool and no one else could verify it. Sadly, that brought other issues with it, but nothing that wasn't fixable (as players have been suggesting for a long time). In short, even if it wasn't perfect yet, I'd love there to be some kind of exclusiveness for spells, just like there is for armor.

[Camate]

Greetings! I’d like to share some feedback in regards additional comments we have seen related to Araise.

• Getting rid of weakness
We don’t have any plans to completely remove the weakness death penalty, so we decided to shorten the weakness time.

• Making it an AoE
We looked into this at first, but the system for Raise is unique amongst magic, and we were unable to do this as it’s not possible for magic to select and target dead characters.

• Making a separate “short weakness” Raise and a Raise “with Reraise effect added”
Araise was primarily designed with the former in mind. In other words, the main special effect of this spell is the short weakness time and the secondary effect is the added Reraise element. If it is not necessary, we can cut out the Reraise. We were not looking to create a Raise spell that had Reraise added to it, so we are not thinking to create this type of spell separately.

There have also been comments saying to just make Araise be Raise IV. While we do not have any plans currently for implementing a Raise IV, if we were to make the spell, I believe it would have effects such as 5 minute weakness, increased HP amount when raised (or possibly full HP recovery), and zero xp loss.

• XP Loss
The same as Raise III, Araise will return 90% of the experience points that were lost.

[Kalilla]

I'm not sure who asked about removing weakness completely...

but why is the spell called Araise instead of Arise?...

Camate please ask them why, because Araise sounds really dumb to say when the spell should be called Arise.

Please... it's so simple yet it seems like we are being ignored about it. Really, many players including myself have said that we are calling it Arise regardless if SE changes it or not, because that's what it should be. If it is because the spell isn't AoE change it anyways, Araise (A Raise) was never in any Final Fantasy game, ever, yet Arise was in almost all of them.

Arise, also known as LIF2/Life 2 and Full-Life:

Final Fantasy --- Full-Life & LIF2
Final Fantasy III --- Arise & Life 2
Final Fantasy IV --- Arise & Life 2 & Full-Life
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years --- Arise
Final Fantasy V --- Arise
Final Fantasy VI --- Airse & Life 2
Final Fantasy VII --- Life 2
Final Fantasy VIII --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy IX --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy X --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy X-2 --- Full-Life (Moogle Life & Moogle Lifeja)
Final Fantasy XII --- Arise
Final Fantasy XIII --- Arise
Final Fantasy Tactics --- Arise & Raise 2
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift --- Arise
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates --- Arise
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time --- Arise
Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light --- Arise
Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy --- Arise

Final Fantasy XI (after 10 years) --- Araise....?

Edit: I was told from someone that the japanese is "A-Raise" and has been for every iteration. Does this mean that the translation is bad? For us the spell has always been Arise or LIF2/Life 2 or Full-Life.

[Phafi]

How about adding like a 10-15second invincible effect so you can get up and move away from the monster without getting destroyed while still in the animation?