Thie... Treasure Hunter ideas

[Imole]

Id like to have an Enmity Douse ability like BLM has not every situation wanrants you getitng and holding hate. It would be nice to let that 4k eviseration hate disapear...

[Pesh]

LOL you have got to be kidding me how about you just say no if u don't want to pull. Don't restrict other people because u dont wanna fill a job roll. Some thieves like to pull, hell some thieves specialize in Dynamis pulling for currency

Yes, I do say no. Dynamis pulling is one thing.

Pulling for an exp party when a lesser DD or support job can do it is something else.

Back when our damage wasn't great, sure I could justify pulling, but in exp parties I am top of the parse and I tank about 3/4 of the time, hence my refusal to pull.

To prove a point, I've pulled hate and then ran off to pull the next mob while letting whatever we were fighting chase me. Party leaders learn pretty quick the value of a heavy DD THF; if they don't, well their alliances aren't worth staying in.

Filling a job roll, what are you a pink gear wearing THF? Get full AF3+2 and some of the best daggers you can get and you'll quickly understand why I don't pull.

[Arcon]

Yes, I do say no. Dynamis pulling is one thing.

Pulling for an exp party when a lesser DD or support job can do it is something else.

Back when our damage wasn't great, sure I could justify pulling, but in exp parties I am top of the parse and I tank about 3/4 of the time, hence my refusal to pull.

To prove a point, I've pulled hate and then ran off to pull the next mob while letting whatever we were fighting chase me. Party leaders learn pretty quick the value of a heavy DD THF; if they don't, well their alliances aren't worth staying in.

Filling a job roll, what are you a pink gear wearing THF? Get full AF3+2 and some of the best daggers you can get and you'll quickly understand why I don't pull.

Why are you even in an alliance? You can solo 80k/hr and spam amber lights for TE/KI farm as THF.

Pulling isn't for EXP only, nor is EXP a major part of the game to get so upset about. Regardless, THF is still one of the best pullers, Flee and train 10 mob, takes less than 20 seconds, I do it frequently even when I'm DDing and it still doesn't gimp my damage much, probably enhances overall alliance damage output, if you have slow pullers.

Also, I'm annoyed when I do highest damage as THF in alliance, because despite its recent boost in damage, it's still far from the best DD when other people play their jobs right. If you keep saying that, then you either don't play your other jobs to their full potential or don't know anyone else who does. WAR, DRG, MNK, NIN, PUP, even DNC can all outdo THF, maybe even a great SAM. People like to boast about critical WS for ~3k damage, when SAM can spam non-critical YGKs for over 2k.

Some THFs need to realize that they're neither the best DD nor the best tank, nor the best combination of both. Sometimes THFs do need to fill other job roles, regardless of their gear and skills. And Entice would be great for pulling in certain situations, pulling in Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar or pulling NMs in Abyssea that would normally link with other mobs in that area, there's plenty of uses for it.

And regardless of all that, even if Abyssea EXP was the only thing you could possibly pull for, how would this ability make it any worse? You think leaders will make you pull because of it? Why would they want you to pull link-free, when you should normally get a bunch of mobs to sleep/hold and then kill?

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

[LordTrey]

There is always a worse DD than a THF (as a job) is some pickup abyssea alliance. And there are NON dd job that are great at pulling an should be doing all of it. THF hasn't needed to pull in years, abyssea just makes this even more the case.

Personally I don't like pullers that can't sleep mobs. I hate to need to use the attention of 2 players to do the pulling of 1.

[Delvish]

There is always a worse DD than a THF (as a job) is some pickup abyssea alliance. And there are NON dd job that are great at pulling an should be doing all of it. THF hasn't needed to pull in years, abyssea just makes this even more the case.

Personally I don't like pullers that can't sleep mobs. I hate to need to use the attention of 2 players to do the pulling of 1.

Two things on this statement.
1. Pulling is an excellent way to cap out your evasion skill after updates. Quite frequently I was in Aby-Tahrongi pulling Mandies up to 4-5 at a time and purposefully Aeolian Edging them all to come to me while the rest of the group focused on one or two at a time. Granted, the entire purpose was evasion skill-ups and there are plenty of other methods of doing so, this worked best for me.
2. Outside of BRD, no other job can effectively pull and sleep multiple mobs at once (or at least not without a significant degree of risk). BLM or SCH in particular, because all it takes is a poorly timed interrupt and now all 3ish mobs are attacking you and constantly interrupting. I find that THF, DNC, PLD, and/or NIN are among the best pullers for multiple mobs unless you have a dedicated sleeper (then any job will suffice).
Yes, we can be doing something else better, but talking specifically pulling jobs those four are the most efficient in loo of a sleeper. PLD probably more-so than others because they fail at anything else.

[Pesh]

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

In full AF3+2, you are at 23% haste, so yes you are losing 2.5ish% haste by not wearing a piece of Homam, BUT... the additional 5% activation rate on set bonus when you already Triple Attack 30-35% of the time FAR outweighs the loss of Haste. Honestly, I'd like you to show me a better TP set-up.

And if you think I'm weapon skilling in full AF3+2, then you are sorely mistaken.

THF is a job about maximization. Wearing gear that works best in WHATEVER situation you're in. My gear sets are as follows:

TP
WS
Evasion
Utsusemi
TH
MDT
Ranged Attack (Yes, for those times where you do have to throw the boomerang at something).

And for the record I do solo my exp/merits/cruor/gil. I get a BLM buddy of mine to cap my Azure lights for me (afterward he switches to a leech job), then I'll chill in Tahrongi and chest farm Chloris/Glavoid/Lacovie pops til I'm happy.

[Strife]

Pulling isn't for EXP only, nor is EXP a major part of the game to get so upset about.

Very true, my group usually use THF or NIN to pull large groups of mobs in Abyssea for Fell Cleave. Our evasion & flee make us best suited for this, of course entice wouldn't be useful in this situation but it might be for a situation where you are pulling a NM but can't wait for a clean pull because there's competition -and there is a lot of competition for KI NMs in Abyssia can't wait for server merge, thanks a lot SE you know just how to ruin a guys day ; ;- though even in these situations links can be slept or the THF can run of & de-pop them or die. Entice would be useful but I don't think it's all that necessary.

I agree with Pesh in one respect though I hate pulling in XP parties especially since I am often tanking the mob, let a lesser DD do it, at least then you wont get a Benny Hill scene with the THF running away to pull & the mob running after them followed by the rest of the alliance following the mob lol.

Some THFs need to realize that they're neither the best DD nor the best tank, nor the best combination of both.

This is true in a general sense but often -and especualy in XP parties- the other jobs that are designed to be heavier DD aren't geared/ being played as well as the THF so the THF beats them hands down, you need to look at the strengths & weakness of the people in your party & play to them.

PLD probably more-so than others because they fail at anything else.

LOL.

[AyinDygra]

Given the replies so far are directed mostly at Entice (I should have probably put that in the middle of the group, since people seem to latch onto the last idea presented in groups, even if it's the least important of the bunch), I'm guessing most liked the new options to steal temporary items and intangibles. I hope SE also thinks thieves should be stealing more often and more things. That being the case, Caution and Distract are two of my favorite ideas for Thief, bringing back a useful trait that made me more likely to make one of my characters a Thief in past games and an ability that allows Thief to use its abilities in not-so-perfect situations.

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Hopefully, those new steal abilities WILL allow thieves to focus on being better damage dealers. Clearly "Snatch" would be dependent on what SE's monster designers make available to be stolen from each monster (probably family-based at first, to make the ability usable on all monsters, aside from NMs that could have unique items and battle dynamics). In this way, snatch could present new opportunities to enhance THF damage potential on NMs in the form of temp items normally found only in special battlefields.

Snatch considerations: I'm not saying monsters would give you a revitalizer every 1min or something crazy, but I could see a lower powered/duration version of stalwart's tonic, a +5 stat version of Braver's drink that has a lower duration, as well as little potions (as you may remember most monsters in FF6 dropped potions.) Beastmen may have items like grenades and bombs (Qiqirn). Now, I wouldn't be opposed to another adjustment to the "Snatch" command: Temporary Items gained through this command, once used, could potentially reset the "snatch" cooldown timer to higher than 1min, if they're stronger items. Just a thought, to keep it from being "overpowered."

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Another idea I had tossed around would be a steal command like "Sabotage" that could do unique things to newer monsters, especially NMs, changing the mode of an enemy. Notice how this could be integrated into 2 existing examples of monster behavior:
* Mamool Ja, Qutrub, Lamia and Imp enemies: you could Sabotage their weapons without needing to break the weapon with a crit.
* Acroliths: you could Sabotage them by making them blow up parts of their body, disabling different special attacks.
A couple new examples:
* The Bird family: you could Sabotage their flight feathers, decreasing their attack speed.
* The Uragnite family: You could sabotage their shell, reducing their physical damage resistance.

To make the "Sabotage" idea work, it would be best if alternate methods of changing the monsters modes existed, as can be demonstrated with the Mamool Ja (crits) and Acroliths (body parts are blown up by the NM's own actions). In this way, groups that do not include a Thief could still benefit from these monster quirks, but including a Thf would make them triggerable.

edit: the more I think about Sabotage, the more it sounds like a way to make Despoil more useful. Of course, I'd like to see Despoil's timer split from steal as well, especially if this effect is added to it. Then... maybe make Sabotage a 99Merit Trait that adds this effect to Despoil, although, I'd like to see this in use before level 99.

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Just some more thoughts.

[Karbuncle]

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

Mmmm, I think you've heard wrong :\, Even the best math i found were either in favor of AF3+2 or Too close to be able to tell which might be better.

Now, Inside Abyssea (only, Inside Abyssea, And thats with Atma of the apoc, Full Triple Attack Merits, Eponas/Triplus Dagger so you have a Triple Attack rate of about 34%) Full AF3+2 Beats out other builds. (In my opinion, and in some math)

You can Also reach up to 24% Haste with this, 25% if you wanna get gimpy on your weapons, With that build you're better off with the 24% Haste (Full +2, Twilight Belt, Tiercal Necklace). This is making you lose 1.?% of Haste, But you also gain nearly 2x Activation rate for Set bonus. (As far as all of my tests show, 4/5+2 gives only 3% Act. rate, where as 5/5 Gives about 6%, (largest variations were 5.3% and 7.1%) Doubling your odds or more).

Outside of Abyssea, Entirely different story, As your Triple Attack rate significantly lowers (15% lower because of Apoc Loss).

So really its a matter of Opinion, i for one take the idea of Full+2 and hit 24% haste and I'm okay with that. Others might not. But to reiterate, most math i see on the subject (There was a thread on FFXIAH, You'd have to look it up...) It was either in favor of +2 or closer to even where either set would get the job done.

Of course you would want to put on Full-haste for recasting shadows and such, No question. and (Dur) normal SA/TA/etc Set swaps.

[Arcon]

In full AF3+2, you are at 23% haste, so yes you are losing 2.5ish% haste by not wearing a piece of Homam, BUT... the additional 5% activation rate on set bonus when you already Triple Attack 30-35% of the time FAR outweighs the loss of Haste. Honestly, I'd like you to show me a better TP set-up.

It's 16% haste in full AF3+2. I assume you counted Twilight Belt, although there's really no reason to use it on THF. AF3+2 head, body and legs, Homam Manopolas, Ballerines, Tiercel Necklace, Nusku's Sash. Any dagger combination between Auric, Triplus, Twilight and Rapidus works about equally well (personally I use Auric/Rapidus, may change Rapidus for Triplus when I get it). This puts you both at near cap haste and near capped Dual Wield bonus for THF (capped in both if using Auric/Rapidus).

Also, even if you were using Twilight Belt for Haste, the set bonus would in no way outweigh the loss of haste. Remember that 5% activation rate only activates on 5% of Triple Attacks. Which are (optimistically speaking) 20% of your total attacks. So that 5% activation rate gives you only a bonus in 1% of all attack rounds, less than 1 in 100. Meanwhile 2% haste will give you 23% vs 25% haste, meaning that even without any DW bonus and without any haste from spells (and the more you get, the more you will notice the effect), you'd get a bonus 2+ attack rounds in 100 rounds. Which makes this at least 2 times better than fulltiming AF3+2 (as in, 2 times the bonus damage), and remember that you only need one slot to get the additional 2% haste. Which means you still have another slot you can fill with accuracy, attack or whatever else you need.

THF is a job about maximization. Wearing gear that works best in WHATEVER situation you're in. My gear sets are as follows:

TP
WS
Evasion
Utsusemi
TH
MDT
Ranged Attack (Yes, for those times where you do have to throw the boomerang at something).

Hope you mean Ranged Accuracy. But that just what I wanted to say.. not only gear should adapt to the situation you're in, but also your playstyle. Sure, often your THF may be the best DD in the bunch, sometimes I'm sure it isn't. Sometimes a THF plays other roles. And pulling may be one of those. Even inside Abyssea on occasion, although I'm not even referring to that, there's a whole bunch of situations outside of Abyssea when this ability may come in handy, and I'm sure even more such situations will be introduced in future expansions or add-ons.

Edit: I didn't consider Atma of the Apocalypse, as I was referring to THF DD in general, not just inside Abyssea. Even with that though, it's still not better:

35%*5% = 1.75%, still less than 1 in 50 activation rate, whereas 2% haste will give you more than 1 attack round in that time. Remember this is only with 0% haste from Spells or other means, the more you get from those sources, the more it will matter. But even in solo efforts, it's slightly better than full AF3+2 with only the Haste-pieces from the set.