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Thread: Enmity

  1. #21
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Greever View Post
    Its hard to restrain urself from just melee'in lol.

    There were very few mobs that could be blood tanked that mattered pre-abyssea. In those cases usually /rdm could be used. But also in those cases RDM and or Blu could be better at it. And back in the day if u were using a pld tank for anything that mattered, it was /nin. Can u name one relevent NM that would be blood tanked, and which subjob was prefered? in any of those cases if its /rdm, a main rdm or blu could do it better.

    Dont get me wrong, I used to love pld. played it for a long time. But as time progressed, I found that pld dosent have a nich compared to other jobs. Basically any job can do what a pld can with the same buffs (marches/haste/pro/shell/healing support). Pld had and still has no singular place in the game since its designed role (pld was designed to tank) can be filled by so many other jobs. It kinda makes me think of it as the frankenstien monster of the game lol. Its not a mage and its not a DD, its somewhere inbetween (yes pld can DD...other jobs just do it better lol).

    Yes soloing with pld is great, ive solo'd things at 75 with pld/dnc that i would only try on rdm (only reason i did it on pld is because of attonement to make the fight faster lol).

    As it stands, plds new motto should be "...other jobs just do it better"
    I just haven't seen this in my experiences. Now things may change once strong atma is attained or something, but I would match up my tanking against any blink tank i've ever played with on the vast majority of things. I dont' think they overshadow me at all, and i'm more self-sufficient and require much less support - especially later on in the game when Paladin really starts to impress.

    Now I will admit there are some bosses who have annoying moves that make blink tanking prefered - such as a NM with enpetrify or something like that. In a situation like that, yes - i will agree a blink tank is better. But from my own experiences, I compete just fine as a viable tank and believe paladins do have the edge against most things. With the addition of phalanx alone this job has easily grown 3 times stronger than it ever was, and that's not even counting the numerous other buffs they have gotten.

    Also, a lot of people on this forum underestimate the amount of enmity heals create. Cure 4 spam makes a lot more enmity than most dd's are capable of, especially if you team that up with flash and some enmity gear. Paladins are hate mongers - and I just don't see why so many on this forum act like Paladins are at the bottom of the tanking pool. I just haven't see this, and I'm more than satisified with my paladin's performance. It is the best its' been since I have started playing this game.

    I"d love to agree with my fellow paladins and say we desperately need huge buffs. But if I did would be for selfish dishonest reasons. I really do feel this job is pretty incredible right now, and I haven't even started getting the powerful atma yet.
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    Last edited by Dale; 03-22-2011 at 02:58 AM.

  2. #22
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Cure spam is some of the most MP-Inefficient Enmity gain in the entire game. Blood tanking also means your CE is getting smashed to bits every time you take a hit, lowering your overall enmity levels.
    (0)

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  3. #23
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    Cure spam is some of the most MP-Inefficient Enmity gain in the entire game. Blood tanking also means your CE is getting smashed to bits every time you take a hit, lowering your overall enmity levels.
    Well I don't want to get into too much detail on this - but there are multiple ways to recover and conserve mp on this game, and perhaps that is where Paladins dissapointed with their abilities should instead focus on. It is quite effective at creating tons of hate.

    The Paladin's real strength has always been his ability to heal and tank, and IMHO that is where players should put their focus on if they want to maximize the potential of their paladin.

    If you just want to focus on holding threat and doing damage while other people keep you alive then there are better job options out there for that kind of play - monk being among them.
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    Last edited by Dale; 03-22-2011 at 05:47 AM.

  4. #24
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    You don't need to explain anything. Go ahead and work under the assumption I know all there is to know about the PLD job class. I can still tell you that cure cheating in this day and age is generally a waste of both time and MP. You gain significantly more Enmity overall by TP'ing and using your accumulated TP to launch Chant du Cygne (It should always outdamage Sanguine/Atonement) than you would interrupting your attack rounds for unnecessary cures.

    I'm not saying a PLD shouldn't cure itself if it takes damage, but you are much better off avoiding taking damage in the first place (Utsusemi) and only curing when you actually do take damage (or someone else does). Blood tanking is only viable when you can realistically reduce the damage you take to the point where you are producing more average Enmity per second than you lose by taking damage.
    (0)

    I will have my revenge!

  5. #25
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    You don't need to explain anything. Go ahead and work under the assumption I know all there is to know about the PLD job class. I can still tell you that cure cheating in this day and age is generally a waste of both time and MP. You gain significantly more Enmity overall by TP'ing and using your accumulated TP to launch Chant du Cygne (It should always outdamage Sanguine/Atonement) than you would interrupting your attack rounds for unnecessary cures.

    I'm not saying a PLD shouldn't cure itself if it takes damage, but you are much better off avoiding taking damage in the first place (Utsusemi) and only curing when you actually do take damage (or someone else does). Blood tanking is only viable when you can realistically reduce the damage you take to the point where you are producing more average Enmity per second than you lose by taking damage.
    You are missing my point.

    My point is if you are wanting to focus on a job that concentrates on doing high damage and using utsusemi to avoid taking damage you are better off playing a different job. Paladin is not built to be a high-damaging ninja-like class, and we have too many people who are trying to turn the Paladin job into something it isn't.

    If you feel healing is a waste of mp and don't like the heal/tank concept, then Paladin isn't the job for you, and that is most likely the source for your discontent.

    Paladins are designed to be healers that tank. That is the whole concept behind the job. If you want to be a tank who relies on high damage and shadows to get the job done, there are other jobs better suited for it.
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  6. #26
    Player Martel's Avatar
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    Character
    Martel
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    Ragnarok
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    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    You are missing my point.

    My point is if you are wanting to focus on a job that concentrates on doing high damage and using utsusemi to avoid taking damage you are better off playing a different job. Paladin is not built to be a high-damaging ninja-like class, and we have too many people who are trying to turn the Paladin job into something it isn't
    Well, unfortunately, about the only way to make PLD reasonably useful at the moment, is to make it "something it isn't". And SE doesn't seem to mind the idea either, considering the delightful amount of excellent DD stats on our AF3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    If you feel healing is a waste of mp and don't like the heal/tank concept, then Paladin isn't the job for you, and that is most likely the source for your discontent.
    He didn't say that curing was a waste of mp. He said the curing for enmity was a waste of mp and time. And he's right. It is. The CE modifier for cure enmity has been declining since lvl one. And it hasn't stopped. Only slowed in its rate of decrease. The more levels we gain, the worse curing becomes as an enmity tool.

    Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

    That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
    500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

    Notice the difference?

    Melee dmg is twice as effective in the first place, is gained just sitting there hitting the mob, and doesn't cost mp. But, of course, no PLD would cure in +0 enmity, so lets work with that.

    500 cure with +50 enmity, 468 CE.

    Now, my TP build has +20 enmity in it(just as a side effect of DD stats, I'm not stacking enmity for DD, lol), so lets factor that into the melee dmg.

    500 dmg +20 enmity, 750 CE. 468 vs 750. And one of these makes the mob dead sooner. And you can easily do 500 dmg in a single attack round, with good DD atmas and gear.

    Not to mention, as soon as I get 100% TP and throw out a nice 3k'ish chant, we're looking at a spike of 3750 CE, and instantly capped VE. And if we were near the start of that fight, I'd throw up sentinel before that chant, putting it at 7500 CE. Out of a 10k CE cap...

    Curing has its place. As a survival tool. And cure kits have their place, as a situational tool(unmelee'able/flying mob, don't kill it yet!, etc.) But DMG as a hate tool is vastly superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    Paladins are designed to be healers that tank. That is the whole concept behind the job. If you want to be a tank who relies on high damage and shadows to get the job done, there are other jobs better suited for it.
    Back in 2004, certainly. But the game has changed. Change with it, or be left behind. Unless SE makes drastic changes to PLD or the game itself, DD style, and often /nin, is the reality of the effective PLD. And if SE does make those changes, we will study them, and change with them. Will you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    then Paladin isn't the job for you
    I would say, based on his accurate understanding of the current PLD, that PLD certainly is the job for him.
    (0)

  7. #27
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    Well, unfortunately, about the only way to make PLD reasonably useful at the moment, is to make it "something it isn't". And SE doesn't seem to mind the idea either, considering the delightful amount of excellent DD stats on our AF3.


    He didn't say that curing was a waste of mp. He said the curing for enmity was a waste of mp and time. And he's right. It is. The CE modifier for cure enmity has been declining since lvl one. And it hasn't stopped. Only slowed in its rate of decrease. The more levels we gain, the worse curing becomes as an enmity tool.

    Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

    That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
    500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

    Notice the difference?

    Melee dmg is twice as effective in the first place, is gained just sitting there hitting the mob, and doesn't cost mp. But, of course, no PLD would cure in +0 enmity, so lets work with that.

    500 cure with +50 enmity, 468 CE.

    Now, my TP build has +20 enmity in it(just as a side effect of DD stats, I'm not stacking enmity for DD, lol), so lets factor that into the melee dmg.

    500 dmg +20 enmity, 750 CE. 468 vs 750. And one of these makes the mob dead sooner. And you can easily do 500 dmg in a single attack round, with good DD atmas and gear.

    Not to mention, as soon as I get 100% TP and throw out a nice 3k'ish chant, we're looking at a spike of 3750 CE, and instantly capped VE. And if we were near the start of that fight, I'd throw up sentinel before that chant, putting it at 7500 CE. Out of a 10k CE cap...

    Curing has its place. As a survival tool. And cure kits have their place, as a situational tool(unmelee'able/flying mob, don't kill it yet!, etc.) But DMG as a hate tool is vastly superior.



    Back in 2004, certainly. But the game has changed. Change with it, or be left behind. Unless SE makes drastic changes to PLD or the game itself, DD style, and often /nin, is the reality of the effective PLD. And if SE does make those changes, we will study them, and change with them. Will you?



    I would say, based on his accurate understanding of the current PLD, that PLD certainly is the job for him.
    I hate when people piecemeal my posts like this. I'm just going to reply to it all at once.

    Paladins are plenty useful in there current state, and there really isn't much DD stuff on AF3. Most of it centers on defensive stats and has some nice accuracy bonuses as well, which is great for paladin tanks, since accuracy food really isn't an option for any paladin wanting to maximize their defense.

    IMHO, the worst thing you can do to a Paladin is forget about your healing and pretend you are a ninja. That is probably the main reason so many people are unhappy with the job. And their AF3 in no way resembles this kinda of playstyle. There is a tiny bit of haste on it and some strength, but that's about it. It is deffinitely a defensive set, as it should be. Tons of HP and Mp also, stats which any good heal/tank will drool over

    Curing is not a waste of mp for enmity. Not only does it create a ton of enmity, but it also restores your HP as well, so you get two things in one. And just because you are curing yourself doesn't mean you can't melee also - so basically your whole argument makes no sense.

    Curing does not prevent you from meleeing or doing damage. That's just silly to think that. Obvioulsy a paladin meleeing and using weapon skills and curing on top of that is going to create a lot more enmity than a paladin who does nothing but melee and use weapon skills. That's the bottom line, and what i was pointing out. I never said a paladin should sheath his sword and just use cures and stop hitting the monster and using his weapon skills.

    And the game hasn't changed in the respect you say it has since 2004. In fact I'd say Paladins far excel in their role as a healing tank than ever they did way back when in 2004.

    And this was my point. If you don't like to cure yourself to create extra enmity while keeping yourself alive - Paladin just isn't the job you should play IMHO. If you want to blink tank and rely on maximizing your melee damage to create enmity and neglect your heals, you probably should be playing something else. That's why so many paladins at the moment are envious of monks and other blink tanks...because they are trying to be like monks or ninjas with plate armor on and it's just not working out for them as well as it is for jobs that are actually made for it.

    Finally to close i'll just say this,
    The Paladin is indeed a heal/tank, and that is a very accurate understanding of the job. We are not ninjas in plate armor. That is a very poor understanding of the job.

    We just completely disagree with one another, so might as well leave it at that.

    This job is awesome for players who want to maximize their ability to tank and keep themselves alive while doing it. It's what we actually excel at.

    This job is not awesome for players who want to maximize their enmity by doing huge melee dps. You will always be overshadowed by other jobs if you attempt this, and that's why you see so many unhappy paladins.

    We have way too many people playing paladin right now who would be far better suited playing as a warrior, monk, or even ninja.
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    Last edited by Dale; 03-22-2011 at 11:41 PM.

  8. #28
    Player Lutschfactor's Avatar
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    Sandoria
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    Character
    Packboy
    World
    Bismarck
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    RDM Lv 90
    dale, after playing pld since i could remember..i started in 02 after high school. u have by far said it the best way anyone can on how a pld should be a pld. i only wish i could have stated those things earlier then u. i agree with u on just about everything u have to say about how a pld should be a pld. we both know the only real way to do the damage is with the atmas...but this game is more then atmas...at the moment it is abyssea and its obvious to everyone who plays. there will be a time when abyssea is no longer needed. like sky, sea, and limbus. then all u people who cant tank on mnk will be crying for a pld who has worked his ass off to get the af3 and chant and aegis and all magic and physical down gear they can get. one day we will have our victory.
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  9. #29
    Player Sagian's Avatar
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    Sagian
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    Phoenix
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    WHM Lv 66
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post

    Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

    That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
    500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

    Notice the difference?
    Yes, but how long does it actually take a PLD to do 500 points of mele damage or accumulate TP for a WS vs casting a Cure IV? When you start trying to crunch numbers like this, you have to take time into account. You also need to take into account the fact that the DD's are doing damage at the same time the PLD is.

    Sure, your weapon skill may get hate, but if I let you take a couple hits, throw a Cure IV at you and then Provoke, guess who's going to have hate again... and if I happen to have the TP, throw in a WS for good measure.

    Of course I'm assuming hate isn't capped for both of us and I'm talking about IT mobs here. Anything less is usually too soft and too quick to die to bother with.
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    Last edited by Sagian; 03-23-2011 at 03:20 AM.

  10. #30
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Sigh.

    It's abundantly clear that a lot of people posting don't really know how Enmity works, so I'll help out.

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html

    The above is an incredibly extensive compendium of Enmity testing and knowledge. Kaeko (Kanican) has contributed literal mountains of information to the playerbase. Take the time to read through it, and you will find yourself better able to understand the FFXI Enmity system.

    All Paladins Should Read This. (All senior citizens should wear life alert, etc)

    Edit: I'll just make a new thread for this link, actually. I don't want it to get overlooked here.
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    Last edited by Greatguardian; 03-23-2011 at 03:45 AM.

    I will have my revenge!

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