Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Karbuncle]

I think it was all rather planned. At 75 no job that could equip mandau (or any goood daggers) had any DW and at most could get DW2 from /nin. Now thf has native DW3, any job can get DW3 from /nin. Rdm has temper. Brd....lolbrd. I think the dagger damage in general was edged down relative to other options because dagger users (thf and dnc) have stupid amounts of atk speed compared to at 75. Rdm still has temper to work with, and no one cares about brd.

NIN Didn't get a Katana nerf, Their weapons went up pretty much the same rate. And they gained 2 more traits of Dual Wield IIRC, 1 whole more than THF Gained from 75 (/NIN Dual Wield II)... Same for MNK, MNK's weapons actually got a MAJOR boost, Spharai over doubled its damage, While MNKs continued to get more Martial arts, and Higher base damage from Skill.

Same for Swords, and BLU Got Dual Wield II and III as well.

I just cannot agree with that train of thought. Sorry

Not that I wouldnt 'mind' a boost, but I really dont feel its neccessary at all.

THF and DNC are arguably the worst Damage dealers in the game by a wide wide margin. I think its pretty necessary, for nothing more than to simply level the playing field. Besides, its not like adding 2~4 Damage to our weapons would snuff out other jobs, Would just make us more competitive.

Bringing up Ragnarok, DRK since 75 has gotten a JA that went from 30s, to 3min, That increases their Attack by 25% and reduces their Delay by 25%, I don't see Scythe or GS Getting nerfed, IN fact, Ragnarok went from one of the worst "DD" Relic to quite possibly one of the best.

Buffs are handed out in subtle ways everywhere... Except daggers. Dagger WS's are all quite weak comparitively to other WS, and even with SATA, Rarely can match the numbers of a good Ukon WAR, who has no JA Restrictions on making their WS not suck hardcore. (Admittedly, an non-Zerk/Blood-rage Ukkos won't be as epeen as one with, But the WS still holds up strongly on its own)

Shoha as an example as well. Can be spammed for insane damage. Resolution and Upheaval close behind. All these WS have fTP mods sitting around 4.0~5.0, Same as Exenterator, The only difference is that Those weapons have a Base damage in the 120+ Range, while Daggers sit around 47 (Thok).

So even with equal mods, Dagger is always doomed to be significantly weaker from the start, Unless for DNC and THF, you pair it with SA/TA or the Flourishes. Theres no need for Daggers to have such low base damage than its not even a good DPS weapon anymore, as well as having no power-hitting WS, and over-all lack-luster in general.

2handers are already about to get a HUGE nerf bat when they nerf save TP.

Really could care less about 2 handers getting quite possibly the most well deserved nerf in 8 years. They're already so far infront of any other DD by a wide margin this nerf will take them from here:

2handed ------------------------------------------- 1 handers
to
2handed ------------------------------------------ 1 handers

That nerf only widely effected 1 event, Voidwatch, anyway.

I wont be on drg getting 40-60TP returns after a WS anymore in VW having a darn 2-3hit build with a multi atk weapon.

Was broken anyway. Shouldn't judge your opinion on rather a weapon needs adjusting simply because 2handers can no longer have 1 hit builds or were infinitely broken.

The rediculous amount of WS frequency for 2handers is going to get a MASSIVE drop. When that happens melee DOT from just hitting mobs means a lot more and that is where thf/nin/dnc completely manhandle 2handers.

It won't drop off by that much. Sure, They've ruined save TP. But 2handers were ruling 1handers way before Save TP Got abused in VW.

also, When you're getting Haste and March, on top of things like last resort, Or Hasso, The difference in delay between a Dagger and a Great axe is about 1 Second, and when an Ukon can crit for 800+ Outside abyssea, Daggers do not stand a remote chance.

I'm going to show you want i mean by the above. Assuming a THF and a WAR or DRK at Capped/near capped Haste (Easily Obtained with combinations of a BRD/Haste Spell/Hasso/Last resort, Which is present in most real endgame events)

THF: Mandau/Thokcha - Dual wield III, 25% Haste in Gear, Haste (Spell), 1 March.(Whch is overkilling cap i believe)
Delay: 366
At Haste Cap: 74

DRK: Apoc - Last Resort (25%) Haste (15%) Marchs (20%) Gear (25%)
Delay: 513
At Haste cap: 103

WAR: Ukon(D:156) - Hasso (10%) (Hastes 40%) (Gear 25%)
Delay: 482
75% Haste: 121

So while THF maintains the lowest Delay, the Difference in delay between the above is probably about 0.5seconds or less. While THF Can maintain a 25% Haste and 25% Dual Wield (Though they don't "mend" as 50%, But close), WAR can get 25% Gear, and 10% Hasso, and DRK Can get 25% Gear, 25%JA(3/5min) or 10%JA(all the time). SAM as well 25%/10%, DRG 25%/10%.

So THF without outside help is probably has about ~10% more delay reduction than the big hitter 2handers. Not really impressive considering those weapons raw damage potential.

The above serves no real purpose other than show that 2handers will still kick 1 handers, Dagger specifically, up and down the street with or without Save TP being broken, and that Daggers maintain one of the worst damage output possibilities in the game.

They're in need of a buff, this small buff will help them a little, It won't bridge the gap, but it'll make it less horrible.

Please

[Laphine]

Yeah i agree with you Karb. Since everyone has DW3 now, daggers having lower natural dps will just make us sit under everyone else. But well that's probably what they want from us anyway. TH ONRY.

edit: oh and 1 march doesn't floor our delay even if we use suppa and raiderang. We go to about 30% delay with that.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah i agree with you Karb. Since everyone has DW3 now, daggers having lower natural dps will just make us sit under everyone else. But well that's probably what they want from us anyway. TH ONRY.

edit: oh and 1 march doesn't floor our delay even if we use suppa and raiderang. We go to about 30% delay with that.

I see, So you'll need both marches? I tried using the BG Formula but i messed it up i guess. lol :X

[Laphine]

need both plus a varying extra oomph from haste samba. Or maybe drop the second march, but samba will be a must. For instance, capped magic haste + capped equip haste + 33% DW = 79.06% delay reduction. If we had samba, removing the DW pieces would be a good idea then. Although it's pretty rare to do stuff at capped magic haste these days (or it was for me) since we need 2hs for that.

[Karbuncle]

that b eing the case just hurts THF a little more their delay would sit around 90 or so then in most situations. While DRks and WARs in the above example would stay the same.

[Laphine]

I guess, if you consider capping haste long before them i good thing. I think it's wasted potential, since you won't really need all that haste you will probably receive because the other dds in the party still need them.

Placing the thf in the same situation of the war, the thf will have 76.65% haste while the war has 75%. 86 delay/round vs 121 delay/round. 71.16 dps vs 77.35 dps.

If we factor stuff like DA/TA/crits, i think the thf can potentially win against the war on melee dps (well, could close the gap for sure). THF lacks the ability to spam epeen ws tho hehe.

[Aana]

Its not quite as simple as "daggers were stronger relative to katanas at 75 so it should be that way at 99".

At 75 Thf had no native DW which meant we HAD to /nin. If your talking about DD potential, it was
75: Thf/nin vs Nin/War
99: Thf/War vs Nin/War.

Sure nin has some ~10% more DW than they used to. We have 13% more DW than at 75 AND can sub whatever we want. Zerk/DA or steps, or med/sekka or whatever sub traits you get are more important than a point or 2 of base damage. We also have a boatload more DA/TA/Multi hit gear and cap haste where only 2handers could before. We have gained a lot of ground in a lot of areas.

Similarly, Dnc got a LOOOOT of DW and general DD power upgrades that turned it from laughable at 75 and actually really nice now.

This is why i say we dont 'need' it to achieve the ranking we had vs other 1handers at 75 because we have gained a lot more than most other 1handers since 75.

1hand vs 2hander is a totally different can of worms, but if you are getting your ass kicked by a nin you should probably reconsider how your playing. Dncs and nins have the same problems we do. No big OMGBBQ redonculous WS. Dnc has a few boosting abilities, thf has sata, nin just has more DW to 'compensate' for that. Compared to each other, Thf, Nin and Dnc are fairly well balanced tbh. But there is still a rift between 1 and 2handers and, like i said, thats a whole other can of worms.

Frankly, the DW being either good or 'limiting potential' is just a half full/half empty thing. Sure if were buffed to hell, hasso/JA haste>DW because no TP reduction for same net effect. On the upside, DW comes in MUCH larger quantities and is always available even when your not at capped haste. I know i dont run around with a pocket 2hr brd double march. Im fortunate because i have a pocket rdm haste :P

Half empty: Capped out/zerg stuff DW is limiting.
Half full: The other 95% of the time DW 33% (or more if dnc or nin) is far stronger than lolHasso 10%.

There is more to consider than the 'ideal situation' mathematically flawless examples when considering the merits of weapons. Thf will never win in a zerg and i dont really think thats even neccessary to be a valued job. We have other issues, but being the best zerger is a change that we wont get and isnt really worth fighting for imo.

I parsed an event a couple weeks ago vs my buddies drg. His damage split was like 75% WS damage. 5% jumps, 20% melee. Mine as thf was around 50/50 melee/WS. He did more WS damage per WS and did more total WS than me. Amazing! But I still beat the bejesus outta him because my melee damage was astronomical. I forget the numbers exactly, but he only did like 30 actual melee hits. I did something rediculosu like 250+. He had so much JA and WS animation spam and I had so much free wailing time with crazy amounts of DA/TA and DW (thf/war) i obliterated every DD in the zone mostly because of melee atks.

I know "1 parse doesnt mean anything/blah blah". I only use it as an anecdote to say: Dont be so quick to focus on the lack of epeen WS and ignore the DPS strengths we DO have. Its the same reason back at 75 people ignored us till they ran a parser and noticed all those toothpick stabs add up more than you think. Our melee damage is lightyears ahead of ANY sam/war/drg/drk in a normal situation that doesnt involve super buffed super zergs.

[Karbuncle]

Thf will never win in a zerg and i dont really think thats even neccessary to be a valued job. We have other issues, but being the best zerger is a change that we wont get and isnt really worth fighting for imo.

Thats not even the Issue >_>

I'm not expecting this to put us at the top of the zerg list, It'd just be a small boost to our damage. I felt like daggers got jipped on the way up, to the point Mandau, the original DPS king, Is now behind i think it is 3 Weapons, I just feel like if THF has just 1 thing, It should be the highest DPS in a weapon.

Not to be a king zerg.

[Laphine]

I would welcome this small boost anyway. And since it isn't big, it doesn't sound as something completely unreasonable (broken).

My real true wish is a change to our main tools, SA/TA, because of course, it would affect our performance the most. And they really deserve to be able to contribute more in this DW/zergy world.

[Aana]

Forest getting lost for the trees. Im saying theres no real need for it. If you take a poll of all thfs about "would you like dagger damage raised" the answer would be "yes". If you asked samurais "would you like meditate to have an extra tick" theyd say yes. What DD doesnt want more damage? The the question is why do we need the buff?

If the reason is "Mandau was the higest DPS weapon at 75 and its not now" Im just pointing out that there is something (accidental or intentional who knows) that makes some sense. Thf and Dnc (dagger jobs) didnt have many of the enhancements that they do today that easily compensates for the swapping DPS of Daggers and katanas (even though exceptionally minor change anyway).

To be blunt, I never liked anything that the justification is "just because i want it". I want to do more damage isnt a good enough reason because EVERYONE has that argument. Wars have that argument and I bet that would make a lot of people suddenly have double standards.

Why does THF need more damage? Is it going to change anything? Give us a warm fuzzy feeling for 10 min after the update and forget that TH is why we cant have nice things? It serves no purpose. What reason besides the universal "I like to hurt things more" is there? 2 points of dagger damage wont fucntionally change a dang thing. We wont get invited more. We wont be somehow more 'useful'. Other peoples perception about the job wont change. What does it accomplish? All i see is we get an imaginary trophy that says "Mandau has the highest DPS of 20 relic weapons!!" which is a tittle that i really dont give a shit about, and im about to HAVE a mandau in probably a week.

If it doesnt change anything, then whats the point?