dev1069 Phantom Roll Effect Adjustments feedback

[Yinnyth]

Minuet gives more attack than minne gives defense too, so I think it was intentional. Doesn't change the fact it's stupid. Also doesn't change the fact that minne and pld roll are mostly worthless.

[MarkovChain]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...584#post281584 brought to you by mew.

[Motenten]

Ah, forgot that Kyotomi copied her data to this thread. Copying my reference post here.

Fractional factor:
The percent increase is almost certainly in units of /256 (but maybe /128) based on other info. So +20% is 51/256 (0.19921875) and +30% is 76/256 (0.296875).

401 * (1 + 51/256) = 480.88671875 => 480 (match)
401 * (1 + 76/256) = 520.046875 => 520 (match)

And yes, it's additive with Defender:
401 * (1 + (64+51)/256) = 581.13671875 => 581 (match)
401 * (1 + (64+76)/256) = 620.296875 => 620 (match)

[Motenten]

Continuing forward on the discussion.

Initial post

Follow-up

Earlier post with some of the defense values -- Translated version of that

Error confirmed


Summary:

Ig-Alima
Level 120
Attack 1059

Hypothetical Pld
Level 99
Defense 460

Black Curry Buns: +15% defense, +4 vit

Variations on defense:

With Berserk: 345
~~ floor(460 * 0.75)

With Defender: 575
~~ floor(460 * 1.25)

With Defender+BCB: 663
* Originally listed incorrectly at 630 defense
~~ floor(floor(((460 + 4/2) * 1.25) * 1.15)

With Defender+Gallant's+BCB: 821
~~ floor(floor((460 * 4/2) * (1 + (25% + 30%))) * 1.15)
~= (462 * 1.55) * 1.15
Note: this shows defense keeps no more than 8 fractional bits, and probably uses the same 7 fractional bits as spell recasts.
Final result of 462 * 1.55 must be 714; 714 can then be multiplied by 1.15 to get 821.
If 10 fractional bits: 716
If 9 fractional bits: 715
If 8 fractional bits: 714
If 7 fractional bits: 714

Food multiplier must be exact (n/100), like Fast Cast.


So from this we can see that it stacks additively with other percentile increases to defense. This is also confirmed by Kyotomi's post. I won't try for exact values in any further calculations, though.


I've not been able to find a listing of the percentage increases for all the values of the roll. The Dev1069 post only lists the old Phalanx-type numbers.


Aside: While the sample post used Black Curry Buns as food, and is useful for showing that food applies after all other buffs are calculated, there's actually not much point in using BCBs. Presumably they have a higher cap than Tav Tacos, but since you need to reach 1000 defense -before- food for them to even -match- the def from Tacos (caps at +150 defense at 600 base defense), that's less useful in general.

The effect of Gallant's Roll on defense in these examples is exaggerated due to the food used. Going from 663 to 821 gets the additional defense of Gallant's, along with the 1.15 multiplier from the food. However, as already pointed out, BCBs aren't an effective choice for total gain in defense, and you'd be better off with Tacos.

Example defenses using Tacos instead of BCBs:

Def 1: 460 (baseline)
Def 2: 575 (Defender)
Def 3: 722 (Defender+food)
Def 4: 866 (Defender+Gallant's+food)
Def 5: 345 (Berserk)

Def 4 ends up with a higher value, however the addition of Gallant's only increased the actual defense value by 144 (866-722), instead of the 158 (821-663) it added when using BCBs. Therefore there's a false inflation in the value provided by the roll.



Since Gallant's is additive with other multipliers, it's effectively only increasing a fraction of the unmodified base defense (plus any vit from food).

A fully def'd up pld should be around 580 defense before buffs (as illustration for maximal value of Gallant's Roll), and an 11 roll would thus give an extra +175 defense. Add Defender, and base before food is 900 defense, hitting 1035 def with BCBs and 1050 with Tacos.


Anyway, going back to the original data posted by Mocchi. Have to make guesses on some of the move translations, since I've not actually fought Ig-Alima myself.

Def 1: 460 (baseline)
Def 2: 575 (Defender)
Def 3: 663 (Defender+food)
Def 4: 821 (Defender+Gallant's+food)
Def 5: 345 (Berserk)

Attack 1 (Mow down; not sure which TP move this translates to)

Def 1: 645
Def 2: 614
Def 3: 563
Def 4: 504
Def 5: 645


Attack 2 (Earth Strike; Kurnugi Collapse?)

Def 1: 967
Def 2: 920
Def 3: 845
Def 4: 757
Def 5: 967


Attack 3 (Triple attack round)

Def 1: 1743
Def 2: 1659
Def 3: 1521
Def 4: 1361
Def 5: 1743


Because of the mob's high attack, you literally take no additional damage from using Berserk. The mob is already at capped attack vs a 460 def player (ratio of 2.3, which is above both the 2.0 1H cap and the 2.25 2H cap).

I can't get the values to exactly match up, but it *appears* to be approximately a 188 base damage weapon with +1.1 level correction (not the expected 1.05 for +21 levels), with nominal attack cap at 2.0 Ratio. (math not shown)

Attack 1 probably has a 25% WSC mod on some ~100 stat, and a 1.0 fTP. Attack 2 is the same but with a 1.5 fTP.


Now that we have those numbers, I'm going back and looking at the value provided by Gallant's when using Tacos instead of BCBs

Attack 1 (Mow down)

Def 1: 645
Def 2: 614
Def 3: 563 536
Def 4: 504 499
Def 5: 645

Reduction due to Gallant's while using BCBs: -59 damage
Reduction due to Gallant's while using Tacos: -37 damage


So you can see that the actual reduction in damage due to Gallant's Roll when it's not being inflated by the food chosen is significantly less than advertised.

[Motenten]

Given the estimated base damage and level correction, we can determine that capped Ratio is 2.0. 3.1 * 188 = 582, and capped damage on the triple attack round is 1743/3 = 581 (so probably some missing rounding in there). Therefore the minimum defense necessary to have any effect whatsoever is 530.

An interesting consideration: Would you rather have Gallant's + Dia III, or Chaos + Bio III? Assuming that either the increased defense or lowered attack is necessary to survive the fight, while the other buff/debuff is to improve damage done.

One would then want to compare the value of Gallant's Roll with Bio III. -15% att from Bio III would put Ig-Alima's attack at 900 instead of 1059. Minimum useful defense is 450. Using the BCB defense values:

Def 1: 460 (baseline)
Def 2: 575 (Defender)
Def 3: 663 (Defender+food)
Def 4: 821 (Defender+Gallant's+food)
Def 5: 345 (Berserk)

Default triple attack round

Def 1: 1743
Def 2: 1659
Def 3: 1521
Def 4: 1361
Def 5: 1743

Reduce that to a single hit value

Def 1: 581
Def 2: 553
Def 3: 507
Def 4: 454
Def 5: 581

And look at the results for various defenses to see how it compares.

Def 1: 575
Def 2: 501
Def 3: 462
Def 4: 413
Def 5: 581

We see that Bio III isn't quite as effective as Gallant's Roll, resulting in 462 damage taken instead of 454 without adding Gallant's. Still, it's quite close.

A 30% attack boost (from 900 to 1170, Chaos Roll 11 without drk bonus; assuming 600 defense) would double an attacker's damage (cRatio going from 0.45 to 0.9). Dia III in those same circumstances would increase damage by 59% (0.45 to 0.715).

So in the overall combination of those effects, Bio III + Chaos is better than Dia III + Gallant's.


Let's also take another look at the value of Chaos Roll for a pld. While it's usually considered the better option for hate, if the pld is turtled up it may actually not even have any effect at all.

Assuming that same 600 defense, an attacker would need an attack of at least 630 just to get above a 0.0 cRatio. If the pld is using defense food and Defender (-25% att), and then given a +30% Chaos Roll (net +5% attack), they'd need at least 600 attack just in gear to get above the cRatio floor, and that is highly unlikely. They'll probably be lucky to have better than 500 attack before buffs. Even if you add a Stalwart's Drink to that, that will still only barely move you above the 0.0 floor (650 attack total vs the 630 needed).

So in that sense, yes, there's no value in giving an attack buff to the pld, while a defense buff would at least do -something-.


So if we're going to turtle up, might as well do a proper job of it. Going with a generally high-def gear set, plus Proctect V, for 650 base defense. We can actually broach 1000 defense with that, but since that depends on an 11 from Gallant's Roll, I'm still going with Tacos. Since you lose a point of def from 4 vit instead of 6 for BCBs vs Tacos, Tacos still end up 1 point ahead anyway.


Def 1: 650 (baseline)
Def 2: 812 (Defender)
Def 3: 966 (Defender+food)
Def 4: 1160 (Defender+Gallant+food)
Def 5: 487 (Berserk)

Damage taken for single-hit:
Def 1: 513
Def 2: 452
Def 3: 413
Def 4: 378
Def 5: 581

Fully turtled up results in a 32% reduction of damage compared to using Berserk. Adding Gallant's Roll to Defender+Food reduces damage from 413 to 378 -- 35 damage, 6% of Berserked defense, 6.8% of nominal defense, or 8.5% of Defender+Food.

So, depending on how you measure it, Gallant's Roll is worth 1-2 middling to good Dark Rings.


Now compare that to the best possible Chaos Roll bonus. 40% attack with drk bonus. Given somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 attack before food (closer to 700 for a drk), 40% attack is worth a good 240 attack. I cannot think of any gear that would give you anything remotely close to that much attack in just 1 or 2 gear slots.

One could argue for the actual numeric defense increase, which is 194 in this case. Creed body+legs is 135 defense, but it would be difficult to get another 60 def in one more slot. However since Creed legs also gives you 5% PDT, it already surpasses the value of Gallant's Roll.


Overall, in any sort of comparison of worth -- point-for-point reduction, buff trade-off, equivalent debuffs, gear equivalence, etc. -- Gallant's Roll fails miserably. That doesn't even get into the value of defense as a stat in the first place.

If you want to even pretend that this roll has any value whatsoever you'd need to practically double its defense increase (ie: +60% defense on an 11 with pld). At 20%-30% (and even that's on an 11; average will be a fair bit lower), it's an absolute joke.

[Motenten]

Oh, just for another bit of equivalence, Gallant's Roll (in the last high defense config) is worth about 3.7 levels of level correction. If you use the 'soft' defense setup from Mocchi's post, it's worth about 5.6 levels of level correction (but that's boosted because it's using the increased defense from the food buff as well).

Defining attack in equivalent amounts of level correction removed, you'd need about 104 attack to get 3.7 levels' worth. An 11 on Chaos Roll counters about 6 to 9 levels worth of level correction.

[SpankWustler]

Some part of me worries that the Development Bros are going to mull over the information that has been presented. Ruminate over this information for a fortnight and a day. Meditate over this information while naked under a freezing waterfall somewhere on Mount Fuji. Steal and drink the toner from the FFXIV team's fax machine and hallucinate about this information.

Then, they will carefully decide to make Chaos Roll, Berserk, Minuets, Dia III, Angon and the like worse. Because, for the past near-decade, they just plopped out a lot of numbers and never considered the very positive effect these things actually have.

Fortunately, this train of thought is beholden to about as much logic as "it rains a lot in the Spring because the sky hates me". Unfortunately, I'd put the odds of a nice change to Gallant's Roll even lower than the nutty stuff I just said.