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  1. #21
    Player raps1355's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    Character
    Devas
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Considering how powerful Barspells are I don't expect to be able to cast a second element short of some rare gear piece that allows it (same with a supposed Barall spell). Perhaps if SE ever updates the Evoker's Ring and the Black Belt we'll see job specific super gear much like those two pieces (Such as SCH getting something that gives Stratagems Stored +1 and Conserve Stratagem, or Puppetmaster getting a special attachment/frame that aside from other functions, has the Automaton cast Raise on the master if they die). Basically, I think it is a possibility if we see more super powerful gear someday, but I don't think it will ever be a class feature.

    -

    All in all, I don't see a 500 Enhancing Magic cap as an issue at all, but certain spells should be brought up to the level of spells that cap at that number, be it with allowing them to scale, increasing durations, or just raising the level they cap at.

    For other spells I think they would be more appropriate to discuss in other topics.
    They can be powerful but im sure you will agree with the new VW NM's they arent that great anymore which is why they need to allow us access to higher skill or as you suggest strong job specific equipment.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Do the barspells cap out (with Enhancing) as well? If so, at what amount?



    I would say that part of that is the Red Mage Resist Petrify trait (WHM/RDM, depite having lower Barspell numbers still resists quite a bit with just Barstonra up, but it is still not a good reason to go /RDM since that doesn't help the group), but I certainly see the impact of Barstonra on doing that fight, I'm still not sure if Barpetra actually helps with anything but duration if it does stick however - although if I can I cast it anyways as part of dealing with all the dispel effects Tunga throws out.

    I'll still hold my doubts that barailment spells actually do anything useful (shortening duration only barely counts as useful in select situations) but with the amount of resist you can throw out with a barelement, you can resist ailments quite nicely despite those barailment spells being useless.

    Edit: I just noticed a post in the Japanese forums that seems to be about skill being useless after a certain cap, such as 500 Summoning Magic and 500 Enhancing Magic. I cannot really tell what SE's official reply was due to the automated translation but I think it is safe to assume that based on experiences here and in those forums as well that 500 Enhancing Magic may be the current cap for Boost and Barspells.
    RDM's resist petrify trait is nice, but rarely works. Prior to getting my 500 enhancing build we would spam Tunga (90/95) and his break would be annoying as he!!. At 99 we did it a few times with me on WAR and it still sucked to constantly be getting petrified. Then when I went on RDM and used both of those spells together, he wasn't able to land it once, no slowga and stone spells always got critical resists. It was the slowga resists that caught my eyes, resisting slowga is something that rarely happens, and seeing it constantly was a surprise.

    From what I understand about magic accuracy is that every player has a C rated "magic evasion" skill. Elemental resists are stacked directly on top of that value prior to the monsters magic accuracy check. (Monster Magic Acc + (dSTAT) - (Player Magic Resist + Elemental Resist)) then added to 75. This is coming from memory though so please excuse me if I got the base resist value wrong. You ended up needing about 50~75 over the monsters magic accuracy to reliably resist that element. This is why tanks would stack Barfire and Carol with their own fire set, to overcome HNM level magic accuracy. Now magic accuracy is checked in sequence using the same percentage. If something had a 50% chance to land full effect and tried 1000 times, then 500 would be full effect, 250 would be half effect, 125 would be quarter effect and 62.5 would be 1/8 effect with the remaining 62.5 being critical resists. Some spells completely fail at quarter, some at eight and some at 1/16. Because of this, even having a 50% magic land rate, you'd still rarely see "full" resists.

    Anyways, enhancing magic in general needs a boost. For both WHM and RDM.
    (1)

  3. #23
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    RDM's resist petrify trait is nice, but rarely works.
    I think it has the most impact when combined with Barstone/ra, but honestly it is hard to tell what trait or spell put you over the top for that particular Break cast (and Tunga loves to chainspell them) since there are no indicators, so for all I know my experiences are just pure luck. I really wish we had more information on Resist traits and Barailment spells, but for now all I have is past experiences that could be affected by anything (and those past experiences say that Resist traits actually help but shouldn't be relied on and Barailment spells are as useful as carrying a 4-leaf mandragora bud and fighting monsters on the full moon while facing north on Lightsday).

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Anyways, enhancing magic in general needs a boost. For both WHM and RDM.
    Scaling/caps, effects affected by skill, durations affected by skill (pretty much everything I said before). But since it came up... can we at least get more information on barailement spells even if they'll never be changed? The last time we begged for information the barelement spells came up instead when those are fine (well, we need Bardark/Barlight but otherwise they are fine).
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player Aleste's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    San d'Oria
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    151
    Character
    Aleste
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Do the barspells cap out (with Enhancing) as well? If so, at what amount?
    Tested it today, at 500 skill/gear and the highest we can get is 185 resist on a specific element...


    Notes:WHM/SCH, light arts, 20 light resist is due to Colossus' torque

    I don't actually barspell in the above (I prefer to use 4/5 AF3+2 for the 8% negate chance), and it was used so that I could adequately hit 500 skill without sacrificing too many slots.

    Without using zenith to cap out enhancing magic, I sit at 183 resist, and I don't think it's worthwhile wasting time for the other +2skill earring to bump it up to 184 resist.
    (1)



  5. #25
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleste View Post
    Tested it today, at 500 skill/gear and the highest we can get is 185 resist on a specific element..
    Thanks for the information. I did some digging to see exactly what gear you had represented.

    I listed out the set, including the augmented earring, for my text based purposes:
    • White Mage (378, C+)
      Base 378
    • Light Arts (404, B+)
      +26
    • Merits
      +16 Enhancing Magic
      +10 Barspell, +10 MDB
    • Beneficus (Club)
      +15
      +5 MDB
    • Orison Cap +2 (Head)
      +0
      AF3 Set Bonus
    • Colossus's Torque (Neck)
      +7 (+10, Lightsday)
    • Augmenting Earring (Earring, Rare)
      +3
    • Aptus Earring (Earring)
      +2 (Augment from Tenshodo Coffer)
    • Orison Bliaud +2 (Body)
      +0 Enhancing
      +10 MDB, AF3 Set Bonus
    • Augur's Gloves (Hands)
      +5 Enhancing
    • Merciful Cape (Back)
      +5 Enhancing
    • Olympus Sash (Waist)
      +5 Enhancing
    • Cleric's pantaloons +2 (Legs)
      +18 Enhancing
      +25 Barspell
    • Orison Duckbills +2 (Feet)
      +20 Enhancing
      AF3 Set Bonus


    This setup would lead to 500 Enhancing (and thus 150 resist base), +10 from merits, and +25 from the AF2+2 pants. It also gives something to the tune of +25 MDB (does Afflatus Solace give +10 or +15 with the AF3 body? I think it is just +10 based on the information I have). While clearly, the AF2+2 pants are the best gear for their slot, I wonder if another 2% total resist or +2 Barspell resist is the better choice. If only SE would give us a +5 upgrade to a slot, such as an earring with +7 Enhancing Magic, or a Ring with +5 Enhancing Magic, or even a Mercy Cape +1 with +10 buffs, we wouldn't have to decide.
    (2)
    Last edited by Economizer; 01-20-2012 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Apparently I can't read.

  6. #26
    Player Aleste's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    San d'Oria
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    151
    Character
    Aleste
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Shy of missing the +5 magic defence bonus from casting barspells in Solace, it seems pretty spot on.

    Note to self, I'll have to update my ffxiah itemsets :S

    Honestly, in the grander scheme of things I think I'd be leaning towards the 183 w/ 8% resist set than the 185 6% resist set...

    I wonder though, I vaguely remember someone posting something regarding the possibility of getting +skill augments on elite page of valor augments... Even if its possible to get 2-3 on one ring, and 3-2 on the other that would suffice to cap it out.

    Additional edit :// Clarity on the +skill augments as a Elite regime fight seems possible.
    http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skahnowa


    Presumably enhancing skill is a possibility then?
    (0)
    Last edited by Aleste; 01-20-2012 at 10:15 PM.



  7. #27
    Player Mageoholic's Avatar
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    There are caps placed on the amount abilities/magic effects are increased due to skill values.

    There are two meanings to this:

    In order to achieve balance at level 99, it’s necessary to establish a cap somewhere
    Why exactly is a cap required on these spells? You have 3 jobs that can theoretically break the cap.
    WHM- who has AoE buffs
    SCH- who has no native buffs (so lets ignore them)
    RDM- who has Phalanx II and Refresh II (the following is going to assume one day SE realizes they made RDM bar/gain spells self target and not party target)

    Not all players benefit from having the same buffs as their allies, not all players are always in range of a WHM AoEing spells. Allowing a job like RDM (who already has these spells but don't currently work in a group setting) to cast them single target allows the group to provide buffs to everyone, and buffs that they can use.

    For example, a WHM can Boost STR the melee members of the group, a RDM can then Gain MND the WHM, and Gain AGI ranged attackers, or Gain INT Nukers. A WHM can Bar the group of players in melee range, and a RDM can single target those outside of melee range.

    There is no competition that would skew balance of buffing jobs, not with how they are split already.
    WHM = AoE buffer,
    RDM = Single target buffer, (if you fix the spells to actually work in a group that is)

    These benefit each other. Capping their skill contributions based on a notion of phantom balance is absurd. Especially considering the fact these spells all stack with similar buffs from other jobs (so there is no balance issue there either.)

    The only 2 jobs that would be affected really would be SCH (who has no native buffs of its own that would be in conflict with skill cap removal) and SMN (whose use in this game is tied to Alexander, and has need to be looked at for a long time, since about 04 when it was married to /WHM cure III spam).

    There is no balance issue with allowing magic skills to be uncapped, as the jobs that should be using these spells should be the best at them. Furthermore skill should apply to all spells, not just the handful you deemed worthy. It is silly a BRD/RDM can cast haste just as well as my RDM or WHM. Especially considering as RDM or WHM I don't get the same type of bonus from /BRD. I hope by Balance you honestly aren't referring to mob v player balance, because if so you need to consider tweaking players to have AoE death, doom, and the ability to one shot monsters in their arsenals as well.

    This should apply to all skills that have caps, it is absurd that the game artificially restricts jobs because they happen to have a skill that they are good at, not to mention fixing spells specifically on RDM that should have been single target from day one (or actually work on the damn mobs cough enfeebling cough.
    (1)
    Last edited by Mageoholic; 01-31-2012 at 09:28 AM.
    There is no min only max. Or something like that.

  8. #28
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mageoholic View Post
    Why exactly is a cap required on these spells? You have 3 jobs that can theoretically break the cap.
    I figured based on your posts in that one Red Mage forum that you might have been unaware of the caps.

    Honestly, caps can be a very good thing. In this case I think that for Barspells and Gain/Boost spells, the Enhancing Magic cap is a very good thing, since it allows you to gear for other things just just "more Enhancing Magic" while making a spell set.

    It is much like the Cure Potency cap. If Cure Potency didn't cap at 50%, White Mages everywhere would just have to stack on more and more of it, cures would be more powerful then intended, and gear to do stuff like Fast Cast and Haste, which significantly impact the way the job is played would have no place on a White Mage. It is far more fun to be able to have a few seconds shaved off a timer then to have to get every piece of cure potency gear in existence - including some augmented armor - just to maximize a number for some party, especially when the numbers were balanced around getting way less then is possible.

    So the 500 cap is good. What is not good about it however is that certain spells have caps, scaling, and other functions that are designed around level 75 still. Certain spells could use increased duration (Auspice, Boost/Gain spells, and so on) whereas certain spells need increased potency (Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Blink, and so on) based on skill. Scaling these spells in certain functions based on skill to the current 500 cap would allow us to better use Enhancing Magic gear and decide if the current 500 cap is right (I'm inclined to think it is) after the fixes are implemented.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player Mageoholic's Avatar
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    caps are redundant though, if one can hit 550 enhancing then they should be able to benefit from that. The only case where a cap is need is in haste. It is the only mechanic that if uncapped would be utterly game breaking in the sense that melee would never stop swinging, it would be like dividing by zero in terms of TP gain.

    That is the only game function that needs a cap. Everything else is a % based increase that teeters off in effect the more you add. (in terms of comparative increase).

    What they should be focusing on is adjusting more spells to fit into this cap, in the same vein as the healing magic changes, it is silly a /RDM or /WHM can cast haste for 15% potency, with 50% the skill level of a WHM or RDM main for example.

    In the notion of balance, why not talk about that SE. (personally I see no issue with the cap, I only see issues with certain spells retaining potency regardless of skill level, and certain spells not working on group members at all, essentially making them worthless.)
    (0)
    Last edited by Mageoholic; 02-01-2012 at 02:40 AM.
    There is no min only max. Or something like that.

  10. #30
    Player Aleste's Avatar
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    San d'Oria
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    151
    Character
    Aleste
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    I feel that the 500 cap seems fairly adequate, it's high enough that the majority of most players will never hit it; and the ones that do build for it can hit it and start diversifying their gear.

    Across the board, I feel that every enhancing spells should be effected by enhancing magic, whether it be minor potency or duration increase.

    Protect
    Quite honestly I'm rather disappointed with this series, more-so with merits and gear only adding on extra defence (which most people would agree is rather lackluster).
    Proposed change: Duration scales with enhancing skill, with merits/gear adding 1% PDT.

    Shell
    Overall, the shell series seems pretty spot-on, with noticeable increases per tier and additional items to improve the potency.
    Proposed change: Duration scales with enhancing skill.

    Regen
    Since scholar has gained regen mastery, it seems that the other jobs feel like these spells are going to left behind; they used to have a high hp/mp ratio which hasn't scaled competitively against cures. We've seen only 2 pieces of gear (not counting scholar) that effect regen gear, with one increasing its duration (whm af3+2 mitts) and the other increases potency (cleric briault).
    Proposed change: Either change the gear to increase potency and scale duration with skill, or vice versa. While you're at it, give RDM access to regen3 (at least).

    Refresh
    Refresh spells have lost most of their shine with the advent of temp items, atmacite/atma, loads of refresh gear options.
    Proposed change: Perhaps scale duration with skill?

    Adloquium
    Potency is terrible when compared against COR tactician's roll (1-4 tp/tic). You've mentioned that you're going to release gear to improve it's potency, so perhaps it'll be best to wait till after it's released before commenting further.
    Proposed change: Scale duration with skill.

    Embrava
    <3
    Proposed change: None, it's pretty much perfect.

    Animus Augeo/Minuo
    Could have been an interesting spell, there seems to be threads over in the SCH forums about how to fix this spell.
    Proposed change: Scale +/- emnity effect with skill, or rework entirely.

    Bar-element
    Quite impressed with how this spell turned out, it's a shame the majority of mages I see not using them to full effect. I was also bemused to find out it was possible to nearly cap whilst wearing the majority of WHM AF3+2.
    Proposed change: Change RDM bar-element spells to single target/party targetable.

    Bar-ailment
    Can we have some dev-insight as to exactly what this spell does and what they were aiming for with it?
    The majority of players agree that it reduces the duration by which the player is inflicted with the status effect, however it is common knowledge that you are generally better off rolling the appropriate bar-element spell to out-right resist the effect. It's often quicker and cheaper to cast the appropriate -na spells instead!
    Proposed change: It's rather hard to discern how to improve this spell, considering the majority of people deem it to be useless. That said, it would be incredibly broken if it worked ala divine caress does...

    -storms
    Useful, although could do with another tier (being double weather).
    Proposed change: Duration could do with a minor bump up (maybe 5 minutes max?) effected by skill. Or even a chance at double weather?

    Enspells
    I'll leave it to redmages to cover everything that is wrong with this series of spells.
    Proposed change: Go to the RDM forum and check pretty much any post.

    Blink/Stoneskin/Aquaveil
    Aquaveil was changed recently and depending on whether or not you had a 100% SIR set, this was a good/bad change. Stoneskins low cap needs adjusting along with blink.
    Proposed change: Pretty much anyone with half assed enhancing can cap stoneskin, tweak the formula to benefit the higher skill levels. Tweak blink to add additional blink-shadows so that at capped skill it's 5-6 shadows (that way it's balanced against occulations 138 mp for 9+ shadows).

    -spikes
    Disappointed in the spells and their lackluster potency compared against mob-versions.
    Proposed change: ?

    Phalanx
    All over useful, although it should be noted that phalanx2 should be stronger in potency than phalanx1(accession).
    Proposed change: Change phalanx(accession) to calculate according to the enhancing skill of the person receiving the effect, this way phalanx(-accession) will pale compared to phalanx2.

    Boost/gain
    Brilliant, was nice how it caps out at +25 stat at 500 skill.
    Proposed change: Change gain- to single party targetable.

    Haste
    It's haste, what really needs said here? Everyone loves it, and it should be used on everyone. I've seen a few people want it to be scaled with enhancing skill, and personally I'm against it. If they did, it'd advocate whm/sch more for a stronger potency haste.
    Proposed change: Change it to 5% haste, scales to 20% at 500 skill and watch everyone cry.

    Auspice
    Overall a nice spell, although the afflatus misery bonus could do with a bit of tweaking. A duration increase wouldn't go amiss, however I feel that it having the same duration as haste was intentional.
    Proposed change: Reduce it's casting time a little and I'll be happy.

    Temper
    Some want it single party-targetable, others don't want another spell to rotate round the party. Personally? I don't see any issue making it single party-targetable.
    Proposed change: See RDM forum.
    (1)



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