WHM/RDM

[Jerbob]

Anyone else refuse to use /SCH out of pure spite? :P

It's a terrible, terrible thing. I know this. But I still have a chip on my shoulder about pretty much every single aspect of what SCH is. It drives me crazy when every update SCH recieves something unique that would better suit another job, jobs or a blanket fix (most recent example: regen), "pre-emptively steals" spells or abilities that better suit or are needed by other jobs (pretty much every JA at 75), or steals spells from another job with no concern for job uniqueness, balance or just simple respect for the role other jobs play (elemental enhancing magic [stoneskin etc], tier V spells, Regen V, -na, the list goes on). It's insult enough that another job is introduced that is entirely based on casting other job's spells better than they can - having to then sub it for best results is just irony gone mad.

When /RDM became more practical I was overjoyed that I could play White Mage with a non-SCH subjob that filled the gaping void in WHM's arsenal - MP recovery - but I'm always acutely aware that /SCH just gets better and better as time goes on. It's a little ridiculous that /SCH has a positive effect in almost every single aspect of White Magery - the latest slap in the face being B+ enhancing magic for Boost spells on top of the barspell bonus I've lamented about for a long time.

I'll stress it again - a terrible reason, and one I certainly omit when advising new White Mages, but I've come across a few people who have leanings in the same direction when it comes to White Mage subjobs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Anyone else refuse to use /SCH out of pure spite? :P

It's a terrible, terrible thing. I know this. But I still have a chip on my shoulder about pretty much every single aspect of what SCH is. It drives me crazy when every update SCH recieves something unique that would better suit another job, jobs or a blanket fix (most recent example: regen), "pre-emptively steals" spells or abilities that better suit or are needed by other jobs (pretty much every JA at 75), or steals spells from another job with no concern for job uniqueness, balance or just simple respect for the role other jobs play (elemental enhancing magic [stoneskin etc], tier V spells, Regen V, -na, the list goes on). It's insult enough that another job is introduced that is entirely based on casting other job's spells better than they can - having to then sub it for best results is just irony gone mad.

When /RDM became more practical I was overjoyed that I could play White Mage with a non-SCH subjob that filled the gaping void in WHM's arsenal - MP recovery - but I'm always acutely aware that /SCH just gets better and better as time goes on. It's a little ridiculous that /SCH has a positive effect in almost every single aspect of White Magery - the latest slap in the face being B+ enhancing magic for Boost spells on top of the barspell bonus I've lamented about for a long time.

I'll stress it again - a terrible reason, and one I certainly omit when advising new White Mages, but I've come across a few people who have leanings in the same direction when it comes to White Mage subjobs.

Well WHM stole Regen from RDM in the first place, fair is fair.

That said, gimping yourself knowingly to prove a point is daft.

[Arcon]

1. Sublimation at lvl.90+ is 2HP for 3MP so is the same as Refresh, minus the fact you don't get the MP back instantly every tic.

This can be an advantage at times, because it allows you to store up ~300 MP before the battle even begins. Also, the difference in availability is artificial, since, while it may be delayed MP recovery, you can choose the delay yourself. You can just hit Sublimation whenever the MP is needed and you'll have it available instantly (as in, even if it's not fully charged).

Warp is not a valid excuse to /BLM (neither is Warp II), it does nothing to help your main job.

It helps your main job come home faster.

If you intend to use Stun, or Sleepga when the situation arises, it's fine to use the support job.

You can do AoE Sleep with /SCH too, only takes a bit more effort. But if you're really there for crowd control, there's rarely any uncontrolled circumstances (takes two seconds before use).

That said, gimping yourself knowingly to prove a point is daft.

He doesn't do it to prove a point, he admits the point is invalid. He does it out of spite. Not that it helps anyone (especially not him), but I can relate to that emotion. Sometimes you just don't do things because you don't like doing them. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't try to irrationally justify your position.

[Fredjan]

I've been meaning to level SCH sub, but I just haven't taken the time to figure out how the job works. I levelled it to 30 just for the job emote, so there's not TOO much further to go to get it up to 50 (yeah I know the cap for subjobs is 49, but I like to get my subjobs to 50 because it's a nice round number). Just to show you how clueless I am about SCH, I levelled it to 30 (totally solo BTW) by subbing BST and charming stuff, basically acting like a second rate Beastmaster.

l o l, that made me laugh. But here's some advice if you want to get it taken care of:

SCH takes more effort to use as a support job but it's far more rewarding than /RDM. I'd advise taking it to 50 playing it as a Scholar, not a /Beastmaster. That way you get a feel to how to use it better.

Speaking of round numbers, I wish the final level cap was 100 >_>. I feel the same way about that, yet considering reality at this point, if I have something at 49 already, I don't see the point in taking it up another level unless I'm going to take it all the way up.

I don't even bother. Teleport-Mea/Dem/Holla and use the book warp... It isn't hard to get tabs and they cap out at 50k anyways so it works.

Ah, I forgot about tabs. I never do FoV or GoV these days, so I suppose I forgot about that. That's another option as well. Either way, point still stands about /BLM for "warping home faster". The last time I /BLM'd for Warp was when I traveled to goblins for 100 pieces or visiting Switchstix for Apocalypse (In other words, doing nothing serious).

Easier access to Sleep, and you get Sleep II, Ice Spikes, and Phalanx without throwing away the more sustainable MP pool that Red Mage or Scholar have. Very situational but useful regardless.

Situational indeed, given I'd only cast Sleep/Sleep II on a mob resistant to Repose. I understand it's got it's uses, but it shouldn't ever be considered a primary sub, which is the impression I get from people choosing to use it.

/RDM is basically for easier access to spells that are more difficult to make use of /SCH when the situations arise for it. Ice Spikes? I don't even remember the last time I casted that.

That being said, I've yet to run into a situation that'd make me want those spells enough to warrant choosing the support job option.

Another perk that isn't one you should sub it for, but a nice bonus anyways - Dark Arts not only boosts your Aspir/Drain spells but it also allows you to use a Twilight Cloak more effectively... probably the best nuke White Mage gets.

Haha, I forget about Twilight Cloak. That is true. Nifty facts, go.

Anyone else refuse to use /SCH out of pure spite? :P

It's a terrible, terrible thing. I know this. But I still have a chip on my shoulder about pretty much every single aspect of what SCH is. It drives me crazy when every update SCH recieves something unique that would better suit another job, jobs or a blanket fix (most recent example: regen), "pre-emptively steals" spells or abilities that better suit or are needed by other jobs (pretty much every JA at 75), or steals spells from another job with no concern for job uniqueness, balance or just simple respect for the role other jobs play (elemental enhancing magic [stoneskin etc], tier V spells, Regen V, -na, the list goes on). It's insult enough that another job is introduced that is entirely based on casting other job's spells better than they can - having to then sub it for best results is just irony gone mad.

When /RDM became more practical I was overjoyed that I could play White Mage with a non-SCH subjob that filled the gaping void in WHM's arsenal - MP recovery - but I'm always acutely aware that /SCH just gets better and better as time goes on. It's a little ridiculous that /SCH has a positive effect in almost every single aspect of White Magery - the latest slap in the face being B+ enhancing magic for Boost spells on top of the barspell bonus I've lamented about for a long time.

I'll stress it again - a terrible reason, and one I certainly omit when advising new White Mages, but I've come across a few people who have leanings in the same direction when it comes to White Mage subjobs.

At least you admit it's a terrible reason. I tend to deal with people that think /rdm's automatically better because it has Convert and Refresh.

It helps your main job come home faster.

When I'm traveling around Vana'diel, sure. /BLM is weaker than both /RDM and /SCH in performance. Thus I see zero point unless I'm subbing it for Stun or the Sleep I/II/Sleepga line of spells.

You can do AoE Sleep with /SCH too, only takes a bit more effort. But if you're really there for crowd control, there's rarely any uncontrolled circumstances (takes two seconds before use).

Similar to Dispel use, yeah, except it'll require 2 charges to use (DA + Addendum: Black + Manifestation) instead of 1 for Dispel. In that case I'd rather /BLM, doesn't require you to wait until you have 2 charges available (or 1, if you're already under Addendum: Black) when situations like that arise that are more frequent.

Well WHM stole Regen from RDM in the first place, fair is fair.

I find it hilarious at this point that a WHM would even complain about "losing" Regen mastery to SCH. I do disagree with RDM only being stuck with Regen II at this point. There's nothing "unbalanced" about RDM not being able to get a third tier, especially when they'll still be weaker with it vs. WHM or SCH.

[Economizer]

SCH takes more effort to use as a support job but it's far more rewarding than /RDM.

Popping Light Arts and using Sublimation as neccisary is arguably easier then prepping for Convert and keeping up Refresh. Managing Stratagems isn't any harder then managing a Haste cycle and is about twenty billion times more fun, at least for the Stratagems that White Mage has available - absolute worst case you could just sit on them and only use Celerity for Raise III and if you are really advanced, a Penury for the occasional Cure V or Curaga spell.

[saevel]

Popping Light Arts and using Sublimation as neccisary is arguably easier then prepping for Convert and keeping up Refresh. Managing Stratagems isn't any harder then managing a Haste cycle and is about twenty billion times more fun, at least for the Stratagems that White Mage has available - absolute worst case you could just sit on them and only use Celerity for Raise III and if you are really advanced, a Penury for the occasional Cure V or Curaga spell.

I think he's referring to the smart use of Strategems. Now that WHM's can do Boost-STR and DEX, /SCH pretty much wins vs anything else. Half MP cost on Curaga IV / V is golden, or a super fast cast on Raise (if the damn idiot DD didn't have RR item). Or super fast cast on your own RR should it get dispelled / fall off mid fight.

[Dantedmc]

Honestly rdm and sch subs aren't that different and each have situations where I would use one over the other.

rdm:
fast cast II - 5% faster casting 2.5% slower recast than /sch
phalanx
mab II
refresh -pretty much the same as sublimation
convert -for quick mp especially useful in abyssea with high hp/mp pools
dispel- that doesn't involve addendum
sleep - again no addendum
sleep II
gravity
blind - which /sch doesn't give

/rdm I actually solo'd my wivre haipin with cataclysm and phalanx. Phalanx and a -pdt set makes whm able to pull / hold weak mobs in abyssea. Rdm seems like a better sub in abyssea because you already have highly inflated stats so slightly better boosts / barspells won't matter as much. Accession also isn't such a huge deal when you usually only have 3 other ppl in your party at max.

sch:
light arts - main bonuses for this are b+ enhancing / enfeebling. 5% slower casting 2.5% faster recast than /rdm. 10% mp cost also nice
strategems - mainly accession
sublimation - pretty close to refresh, but nice to store one up

Sch is pretty much my exclusive vw sub for better boosts / barspells and accession

blm:
sleep
sleep II
sleepga
stun
warp
warpII
dispel

All nice utility spells and I could see why someone would use /blm in abyssea, just running around doing old content or climbing vw for a quick warp after the nm is done(if you have temps).

If you subbed rdm instead of sch or vice versa I honestly wouldn't care, they aren't that different. However you should have both at your disposal.

[Economizer]

own RR should it get dispelled

They changed this remember?

/rdm I actually solo'd my wivre haipin with cataclysm and phalanx. Phalanx and a -pdt set makes whm able to pull / hold weak mobs in abyssea. Rdm seems like a better sub in abyssea because you already have highly inflated stats so slightly better boosts / barspells won't matter as much. Accession also isn't such a huge deal when you usually only have 3 other ppl in your party at max.

For soloing with a Staff in Abyssea for a Cataclysm burn, Red Mage is the best sub due to MAB and Phalanx. However, because stats are so inflated in Abyssea, it is an even better idea to get the boost to Barspells since they'll have the most effect - like straight out resisting Slow and Petrify for Barstonra, or Gravity and Silence under Baraera (and when lowmaning you need everything you can for recast timers if things go bad).

[Fredjan]

I think he's referring to the smart use of Strategems.

Correct.

/RDM does indeed provide 5% extra Fast Cast to all spells but in regards to cures specifically it's also possible for a WHM to reach the cure casting time cap subbing SCH. This results in me saving Celerity use for other spells, unless I find myself wanting the recast of the cure so low that it'll warrant using it.

LA - 10%
Merits - 20%
Heka's - 15%
Aceso's - 10%
Cure Clogs - 15%
AF3+2 pants -12%

Total: -82%. The cap is -80% (same as the recast time cap). If you wanted to reach the cap subbing BLM or subs like NIN or DNC, you'd need fast cast gear (Loq. Earring, Vivid Strap/Veela Cape (maybe), Prolix Ring, Witful Belt, etc).

Edit: Another option is the magic damage light elemental path (Arka I), for casting time-12/14% and then switching in Arka IV.

However, because stats are so inflated in Abyssea, it is an even better idea to get the boost to Barspells since they'll have the most effect - like straight out resisting Slow and Petrify for Barstonra, or Gravity and Silence under Baraera (and when lowmaning you need everything you can for recast timers if things go bad).

Exactly. This proves very useful against certain NMs, such as Dragua low-manning. You don't want to get petrified. I can get 184 resist to an element, with nearly perfect barspell gear (I'm missing a whole 2 extra skill, which should put me at 185 resist given the total amount of enhancing skill I have). I've easily noticed the difference barspells make in these situations, more-so than having higher base stats - therefore I aim to have the highest possible, again, which is something only /sch can help with.

gravity
blind (which /sch doesn't give)

As for spells like Gravity, I don't really consider those, whereas I do on BLM: I don't solo on WHM by kiting mobs - I sub NIN and beat the crap out of stuff, whereas I would kite/use gravity on BLM. Anything I do that's "serious" is immune to gravity anyway (Hi SE, I want Gravity II to be worth learning on my RDM so I can have a reason to level it past 95. I never play RDM at all, so I've had no reason to finish it up).

Sch is pretty much my exclusive vw sub for better boosts / barspells and accession

Plus as mentioned earlier in this thread, the helix levels have been lowered, so you also gain those to help stagger the mob (They are level 18-32 now, NOT 61-75). Scholar has 1 proc for VW - Modus Veritas - and it misses MOST of the time. It's sad, as a SCH99 myself, to know bringing SCH to VW at this point doesn't offer a whole lot (besides Embrava for zerging).

At least they lowered Modus Veritas's recast time considering it's inaccurate nature. I still can't stand using a JA that misses most of the time, despite the recast being lowered by 7 (!) minutes.

The helix spells were relatively cheap to learn to begin with if I recall correctly, and they lowered the prices more. There's simply no excuse for a /SCH not to have them for VW just to justify bringing a SCH along (I've had this happen lol). I say this wanting to actively PLAY my SCH - VW revolves around temps/staggering right now, and SCH just doesn't offer much to that table.

[Tanakisnumberone]

sub blm cuz den u can stun, n that is the best dmg prevention