Support style v.s DD sytle: Empy/Mythic make them different

[Seha]

They already said they're going to enhance QD with native debuffs.
I don't think DP needs any kind of revamp, it's already a very good weapon, a weapon that allows you a different play style. On Armageddon you're forced to use Tact/Miser for the WF spam, while with DP you can focus on more dps(even with more direct damage increase rolls).
Situational? Yes. But everything in this game is.
You want to get your DP? Go ahead, it's very good and neat as hell with that look of portable cannon(a very important factor if you ask me).

[Thunderlips]

The only complaints I really have are just that Leaden Salute is Darkness elemental so on some VW NMs is just absolute crap due to their resists; and that unless I can dispel an effect from a mob Dark Shot will not give me the +20% damage boost using af3+2 feet.

Other than those 2 minor complaints, I still love Death Penalty and am very glad I upgraded it. Does it make me the end all/be all DD? No, but I am still able to do a lot of damage and be useful in VW fights.

[Mirabelle]

I've seen TL using his Death Penalty and it does great damage between the QD and LS augments. He's right that is sucks against dark based mobs (as Armageddon does against Fire based mobs). The Dark shot thing should be fixed too. I wish they would add damage back to light and dark shot and give enfeeble qualities to all the elemental shots:
Fire - Addle
Earth - Slow
Water - Poison
Ice - Paralyze
Wind - Silence
Thunder - Stun

But I'd rather see Death Penalty stay as is and make the requirements more in line with other relics/empy's. I don't know who really works on game design and balance, but at times they do a really poor job. Personally if I was designing "ultimate weapons" i'd give people 3 paths: farming/crafting path, quest path and NM path. And get someone that knows about math that can make each path roughly equivalent time sink wise.

[noodles355]

Making Dark Shot do damage would be kind of a big deal. One of the benefits of armageddon now is the synergy of vulcan's staff + fire shot + wildfire. DP with that same synergy of pluto's + dark shot + salute would be great.

[Afania]

If you're complaining because Death Penalty is weak, then you shouldn't just be focusing on death penalty because most mythics are crap as well. Armageddon might be better than Death Penalty on things like Voidwatch where you spam wildfire, but Death Penalty is still a very good gun, and should be king anywhere where you're using ranged DPS with Last Stand more.

Compare that to other mythics now. Terpsichore? WS is crap. Step Accuracy is lol, and Augments steps appears to currently do nothing we can see. Ryunohige gives a boost to drakesbane, but that's it. It's bonus to jumps are completely worthless because you use spirit/soul jump almost all the time. Tizona, Murglais, Liberator, Gastraphetes and Nagi are just complete jokes. No one would use Tupsimati or Laevateinn over a magian staff. Canwenhan is a macro piece to increase song duration.

Maybe that will put Death Penalty into perspective. Mythics need a hell of a lot of work, but the fact is Death Penalty is one of the better ones. So quit your Death Penalty whining. If you're gonna whine, whine about all mythics.

My main point isn't about "This weapon is weak, that weapon is weak, QQ". Plenty of ppl QQ about relic being too weak after empy came out, so SE buffed it, then time for empy owners to QQ, what's the point? One weapon will be stronger than another no matter what. My point is about why having 2 (or 3+ for some jobs) pure DD weapons for certain jobs? Even the the "macro piece to increase song duration" dagger is a utility weapon.

QD at this point of game is a pure DD ability(besides the none-dmg ones), a weapon buffing QD dmg is a pure DD weapon, what's the point to have 2 pure DD weapons for a job(especially this job isn't even pure DD job to begin with)? For a hybrid job like COR, I think we need a weapon to buff the supportive side as well, like how BRD gets 3rd song from empy, song duration from Mythic, dmg from relic dagger, and all songs+ from relic. They have all the relic/empy/Mythic functions differently, so does WAR DRK etc, weapons for different function. So why we only have access to DD weapons when we're not even pure DD job?

There are 3 types of Ultimate weapons in this game, but only one weapon can be the best DD weapon, may as well make the other 2 kind more of a utility weapon.

I'm not countering about you telling me certain situations when Mythic can pull ahead, that's not even the main point to begin with.

If its not game breaking its not likely motivational enough to get people to make a mythic. Adding debuffs to QD isn't likely to make most CORs want to hammer down that alexandrite requirement. I think they have to lessen the stick rather than build up the carrot if you ask me.

I'd rather have an ability that makes QD add debuffs than make it part of obtaining the hardest to obtain "Ultimate" weapon.

None of the Mythic or even relic is game breaking. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I think that's how it should be, nothing game breaking and not a requirement, but serves as long term goal in this game for ppl to try, and added a nice touch that changes something for the job. We don't need 2 or 3 pure DD weapons for jobs. Ppl who loves spamming high dmg WS can use empy, but it'd be more interesting to give ppl who loves to be BRD 2.0 or RDM 2.0 another option...that's just variety and makes the game more interesting, and no weapon will be inferior than another.

[noodles355]

Whats the point in having 2 pure DD weapons? The fact that one will excel in certain circumstances, and one will excel in the other. Having access to both means you are covered for all situations.

Gandiva will beat Yoichinoyumi on fodder content like meriting and dynamis. Yoichinoyumi will beat Gandiva on high end content, especially where hate is an issue. Bravura will beat Ukonvasara on hard content where -damage taken is important. Ukonvasara will beat Bravura on things where that isn't important. Apocalypse will be much the same as Bravura - Beating Ragnarock at times when -damage taken is important, and losing when it's not.

At least Corsair falls into this catagory - having Armageddon and Death Penalty available to cover different situations. Look at thief - Vajra, Twashtar and Mandau are all fundamentally the same with the same purpose. The same can be said for Amanomurakumo and Masamune. And for Gungnir and Rhongomiant. And Glanzefaust and Verethragna.

[Afania]

Whats the point in having 2 pure DD weapons? The fact that one will excel in certain circumstances, and one will excel in the other. Having access to both means you are covered for all situations.

Gandiva will beat Yoichinoyumi on fodder content like meriting and dynamis. Yoichinoyumi will beat Gandiva on high end content, especially where hate is an issue. Bravura will beat Ukonvasara on hard content where -damage taken is important. Ukonvasara will beat Bravura on things where that isn't important. Apocalypse will be much the same as Bravura - Beating Ragnarock at times when -damage taken is important, and losing when it's not.

At least Corsair falls into this catagory - having Armageddon and Death Penalty available to cover different situations. Look at thief - Vajra, Twashtar and Mandau are all fundamentally the same with the same purpose. The same can be said for Amanomurakumo and Masamune. And for Gungnir and Rhongomiant. And Glanzefaust and Verethragna.

The difference between DP and Arma is even smaller than some of those you listed above. Relic GA and scythe is a defensive weapon, not 100% focusing on dmg. Gandiva is a bow focusing on pure dmg, while relic bow and gun is focusing on enmity-(still defensive). Either way, unless theres more mob added into the game that QD dmg is very very important(like super insane unblockable TP move that you can't feed TP, or Pil shield 2.0), the difference between DP and arma will remain small.

[Mirabelle]

I think its hard enough to get a foothold as a COR into the DD scene, that making something that turns us into BRD 2.0, would kill the job for me.

I've always played COR as a hybrid support DD job. If they gave us a gun that was crap for DD but gave MP/enfeebling QD/cure pot or whatever some people envision this jobs roll, I'd likely have to quit. Seeing "Support gun COR onry" requests (and you know that would happen given JP love of COR/WHM playstyle) would be unpalatable.

I'm fine if others want to play COR that way. But I don't want to be pidgeon holed anymore than COR already is. The nice thing about COR has always been that no one really cared what subjob you came as. They just wanted your buffs and you could choose to support the party beyond that in any way you though was best. At times that was as COR/WHM, but often /DNC, /RNG, /WAR, /SAM would work out just as well.

[noodles355]

The difference between DP and Arma is even smaller than some of those you listed above. Relic GA and scythe is a defensive weapon, not 100% focusing on dmg. Gandiva is a bow focusing on pure dmg, while relic bow and gun is focusing on enmity-(still defensive). Either way, unless theres more mob added into the game that QD dmg is very very important(like super insane unblockable TP move that you can't feed TP, or Pil shield 2.0), the difference between DP and arma will remain small.

Read the last paragraph of my last post.

[Afania]

I think its hard enough to get a foothold as a COR into the DD scene, that making something that turns us into BRD 2.0, would kill the job for me.

I've always played COR as a hybrid support DD job. If they gave us a gun that was crap for DD but gave MP/enfeebling QD/cure pot or whatever some people envision this jobs roll, I'd likely have to quit. Seeing "Support gun COR onry" requests (and you know that would happen given JP love of COR/WHM playstyle) would be unpalatable.

I'm fine if others want to play COR that way. But I don't want to be pidgeon holed anymore than COR already is. The nice thing about COR has always been that no one really cared what subjob you came as. They just wanted your buffs and you could choose to support the party beyond that in any way you though was best. At times that was as COR/WHM, but often /DNC, /RNG, /WAR, /SAM would work out just as well.

Just play the style you like, why do you worry about having utility/supportive weapons? I see those weapons only makes the job more useful, it's not like DD weapon(Arma) is taken away if there's a supportive weapon. If you're in a situation needs DD, use DD weapon, if you're in a situation needs debuff/cures w/e, it'd be nice if we can have the option. It's the variety that matters.

It's not like COR doesn't have access to decent DD weapon already. And this job IS used as main DD in certain VW fights, to a point that you need multiple in a pt sometimes. I'm not a big fan of do 2 rolls then spam WS over and over again(or else I'd lv SAM ages ago), would actually love a situations where roll rotation and use QD for support/crowd control like old days comes back. At least even though this job is WS spamming machine in VW, I still played it that way regardless, nothing to complain about really.