Welcome Back Tanaka !

[Potyhoty]

So basically..... until SE shuts down the servers followed by a a mass firing of all Final Fantasy related staff members, and a formal apology citing their failure to listen to the wants of the customer base, backed up with their own statistics, and and pie chart for visual aid, you won't believe that the player base is pissed.

Never said that. I never said that the player base WASN'T pissed. I said that THIS does not show that they are, and it's stupid and arrogant to CONCLUDE that they are, just like it's stupid and arrogant to CONCLUDE that they're not. What I believe is neither here nor there.

And no, a simple survey, while not perfect, would do a HELL of a lot more to get an idea of what the player base is thinking than reading any forums. There would still have to be some caution in interpretation, though, but there are statistical techniques to allow for this. Forums are for qualitative research only.

Your attempting to make everyone believe that every person who does not post feels the same way that you do.

Please show me where I said that. I actually agree with most people here on the issues themselves.

However you don't represent the player base any more than the angry people do. Your argument is null and void.

No, my argument is that it's wrong for us to ASSUME we know what the player base is thinking, and especially wrong for us to RAGE expecting SE to have the same little myopic picture that the forums provide. The argument you seem to think I was making IS null and void, though, you're right about that. And if someone were to rage at SE and saying "THE PLAYER BASE WANTS SAM TO BE UBER/TO KEEP VW DROPS RANDOM/ETC., WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO US?" I'd be just as angry, if not more so since I actually would disagree with that person.

[FrankReynolds]

No, my argument is that it's wrong for us to ASSUME we know what the player base is thinking, and especially wrong for us to RAGE expecting SE to have the same little myopic picture that the forums provide.

Being as they have only asked for a poll one time so far on anything content related, and they ignored the winning tally, I would say that they feel like they learn all they need to know about the way the players feel through the forum, and they don't care very much. As far as the usefulness of raging... I would rather people rage on here for change, in hopes of somehow convincing the devs to do things right, rather than have them silently speak with their wallets. Everyone likes to act tough and tell the angry players "good! Quit then! we don't need you anyways!" but the reality is that the fewer players there are, the smaller the budget gets. Eventually that leads to a game getting warrior nerfs at 99 instead of new expansions that warrior / white Mage can't duo.


The only honest arguments I could see against People venting on forums are :

A) What if we piss the devs off, and they just plain crap on us.
B) I just like to pick other peoples posts apart, knowing fully that I will never change their opinion.

A. is a pretty legitimate argument. What's telling is that no one has taken it seriously yet, because I think in all honesty, even the people who try to defend the devs know that the devs don't really care what we are talking about on here much.

[Potyhoty]

Being as they have only asked for a poll one time so far on anything content related, and they ignored the winning tally, I would say that they feel like they learn all they need to know about the way the players feel through the forum, and they don't care very much.

Well, I would argue they learned just as much or more based on server logs and job usage statistics, which they don't have to ask us for (assuming they're collecting them). Gives a more balanced picture, too... problem is that we don't have access to that picture, and there are very important things that that picture doesn't tell them anyway, which is where the forums are supposed to come in handy.

Giving us a poll would be a face-losing thing for them too. Too bad, because it would be really useful.

As far as the usefulness of raging... I would rather people rage on here for change, in hopes of somehow convincing the devs to do things right, rather than have them silently speak with their wallets.

Agreed. Like I've said before, I think complaining (even raging) serves a useful function. What drives me around the bend is raging based on the assumption that the majority agrees with you and therefore the other party is "ignoring" you in not complying. This is why I started out by talking about a "sense of entitlement". Raging itself is neither good nor bad in my books. That sort of myopic arrogance is quite bad.

And I considered saying something along the lines of a), but to be perfectly honest, the communication goes through so many channels that by the time it gets to the devs, the rage aspect of it is mostly insulated anyway. The community moogles are the ones who have to put up with us, and they're powerless to do anything. In order for it to be completely effective, the devs, including Tanaka, would have to participate in the forums themselves, which will never, ever happen.

Anyway, time to take a break. Need to get my heart rate down.

[FrankReynolds]

The thing is, they don't need to look at any data whatsoever to know that things like void watch drop rates suck. They built them that way. Then they actually came in the forums and defended them. Meaning they knew that people thought they sucked. Their argument wasn't "We're sorry that you don't like the drop system, however, most players think it's great, so we are leaving it as is.". Their argument was "We think it's fine, so were leaving it as is.". The one poll they posted was done in a way that angered almost English speaking person that read it.

You can't do stuff like that, and then pretend that it never happened without pissing some people off, and them ignoring the input because it only represents a handful out of players out of hundreds of thousands is only a valid excuse if they actually attempt to ask the other players. Polls are insanely easy to make. Its pretty clear they don't take them because they don't really want to make the game in a way that suites the player.

It should be fairly obvious to all parties involved that nerfing jobs instead of developing stronger content is a crappy idea. I don't need a degree in statistics to know what the outcome of a poll that says:

should we

A) make new zones, bosses, NMS, Gear and storylines geared towards level 99 characters? Or

B) make jobs weaker so that the stuff we already made is more difficult?

Call me arrogant if you want, but The people who voted for B are probably not the kind of people you want your monthly service income to rely on.

[Potyhoty]

Their argument wasn't "We're sorry that you don't like the drop system, however, most players think it's great, so we are leaving it as is.". Their argument was "We think it's fine, so were leaving it as is.".

Yeah, VW... well, I think they're trying to overcome their previous mistakes, and failing until they come up with something that pleases everybody, like a points system. They just haven't gotten that far yet, and that's their fault. There's nothing saying they won't move to a point system like Assault in the next update, which would be awesome. Of course, there's also nothing saying they will. Most people who hate the current system were calling for drops to go to the treasure pool, which I feel is an even worse idea.

The one poll they posted was done in a way that angered almost English speaking person that read it.

I'm assuming you have stats on that? I don't remember whether it offended me so I guess it must not have. But hey, maybe they got so much negative feedback on the poll that they decided not to do polls anymore because they apparently don't "suit the player"

You can't do stuff like that, and then pretend that it never happened without pissing some people off, and them ignoring the input because it only represents a handful out of players out of hundreds of thousands is only a valid excuse if they actually attempt to ask the other players. Polls are insanely easy to make. Its pretty clear they don't take them because they don't really want to make the game in a way that suites the player.

No, that's not at all clear. And no, I'm not convinced they're "ignoring" anyone. This is what pisses me off about what you're saying. They heard you, and if they didn't hear you, they heard someone else that agrees with you. But they can't just drop everything and implement a new system that's perfect right from the get-go, they'll screw up badly and end up alienating even more players that way, especially due to the feedback of a vocal minority. "Suiting the player" is a dangerous game, and it's likely to backfire in many cases, depending on what the demands of "the player" (as evidenced by said minority) are. If they suited "the player" and changed it right away, we'd be back to a treasure pool system, which IMO would be horrible. And a points system would have to be plotted out carefully before being implemented so that people don't rage about it being unbalanced. (You're listening, SE, right? RIGHT?)

It should be fairly obvious to all parties involved that nerfing jobs instead of developing stronger content is a crappy idea.

Yeah, but I'm not convinced that's what they're doing yet, just that it looks that way. I'm willing to have faith that they have a plan for the new WSs that requires these nerfs. Call me crazy, but I do. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, though. And even if I'm wrong, I don't think it will take that long to fix it. Your mileage may vary, of course.

I don't need a degree in statistics to know what the outcome of a poll that says:

should we

A) make new zones, bosses, NMS, Gear and storylines geared towards level 99 characters? Or

B) make jobs weaker so that the stuff we already made is more difficult?

Well, no, not if you phrase the poll that way.

Call me arrogant if you want, but The people who voted for B are probably not the kind of people you want your monthly service income to rely on.

True, but if they have a bigger plan of which these are a part, then yeah, they don't want to derail it until the whole thing is done. Of course, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and feel free to call me out on it. My point is that I feel it's premature to call it at this point. Obviously you don't, and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm assuming you have stats on that? I don't remember whether it offended me so I guess it must not have. But hey, maybe they got so much negative feedback on the poll that they decided not to do polls anymore because they apparently don't "suit the player"

It was in the beast master thread. They gave a choice of several new pets that they were thinking of adding. They had a couple that were already set in stone, and they offered the players a chance to vote for the last one. The one with the most votes was not added, and instead they put in the one that had the most Japanese votes. Some people argued that they may have done the votes by region, thereby lumping all people who speak English together as 1 vote. Regardless of how the votes were tallied (or if they counted them at all), there was an outcry, which they chose to ignore. They could have just made something up like: "after looking at that pet we decided the other one was better" or even a simple "Balance.", But they chose to leave it up to interpretation, and most people interpreted it as a middle finger.

Well, no, not if you phrase the poll that way.

That is the problem here. The devs are in fact making that decision regardless of our input. Not because people haven't debated both sides of the coin. They are free to do so. The game obviously can't be a democracy, but if they are making decisions that fly in the face of logic, then people can and will be angry and voice it. When they use language like "in order to maintain balance" they are diluting the issue. The fact of the matter is that what they are actually doing is weakening 1 thing instead of making something else better. That is the opposite of progress.

True, but if they have a bigger plan of which these are a part, then yeah, they don't want to derail it until the whole thing is done. Of course, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and feel free to call me out on it. My point is that I feel it's premature to call it at this point. Obviously you don't, and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Yeah, I would feel more optimistic if they gave responses that suggested something good in the works, but so far, they have said things like "working as intended" when people complain about things, and "not working as intended" when people are actually excited about things.

[Potyhoty]

It was in the beast master thread. They gave a choice of several new pets that they were thinking of adding. They had a couple that were already set in stone, and they offered the players a chance to vote for the last one. The one with the most votes was not added, and instead they put in the one that had the most Japanese votes. Some people argued that they may have done the votes by region, thereby lumping all people who speak English together as 1 vote. Regardless of how the votes were tallied (or if they counted them at all), there was an outcry, which they chose to ignore. They could have just made something up like: "after looking at that pet we decided the other one was better" or even a simple "Balance.", But they chose to leave it up to interpretation, and most people interpreted it as a middle finger.

Ouch. I stand corrected.

That is the problem here. The devs are in fact making that decision regardless of our input. Not because people haven't debated both sides of the coin. They are free to do so. The game obviously can't be a democracy, but if they are making decisions that fly in the face of logic, then people can and will be angry and voice it. When they use language like "in order to maintain balance" they are diluting the issue. The fact of the matter is that what they are actually doing is weakening 1 thing instead of making something else better. That is the opposite of progress.

As it stands now, yes. And yeah, I agree with you that what they are doing, on the face of it, is just a bad idea. And if past experience is anything to go by, SE probably doesn't have a master plan. I'm just hoping against hope, I guess. And like I said before, nothing wrong with being angry and faulting the logic they present. That part I agree with.

I'm just a scientist at heart, I guess. And although polls are easy to construct, polls that do what they look like they do are actually incredibly difficult to construct. And 10 or 100 degrees in stats won't do you a lick of good if you don't have the actual data, which we don't. Things like confirmation bias and other things have led to bigger problems than bad MMO decisions, believe you me. So I get a little hot under the collar about it. Sorry about that.

Yeah, I would feel more optimistic if they gave responses that suggested something good in the works, but so far, they have said things like "working as intended" when people complain about things, and "not working as intended" when people are actually excited about things.

Completely agreed.

[FrankReynolds]

Sorry I'm such an argumentative tool btw. It's just that I'm in the middle of building a bunch of new workstations for the office, and this is how I entertain myself in between clicking yes on installation windows, updates and 1,000 reboots :P

[Potyhoty]

Sorry I'm such an argumentative tool btw. It's just that I'm in the middle of building a bunch of new workstations for the office, and this is how I entertain myself in between clicking yes on installation windows, updates and 1,000 reboots :P

Nah, you're fine by me. I want to tender you the same apology, I forgot to drink my morning coffee.

[Glacont]

The way things are now, I don't see SE Returning to the creativity and fun times of:
FF III / IV / IX / Tactics.

At least the week end is coming, and I'll be able to pick up some new games.