Welcome Back Tanaka !

[Potyhoty]

The lack of substance added to the conversation..... D:

"Lack of substance"? What else do you want me to say? I don't feel the refrain of "OMG THEY ARE NOT LISTENING BECAUSE MY FAVORITE TOY IS BEING TAKEN AWAY" is worth humoring by saying anything else. I can do without "conversation" about that. Of course, the other option was to say nothing, but then, if I did that, that's like caving before I even started, and I refuse to let these pompous, self-aggrandizing, egotistical temper tantrums continue without at least commenting. So I'll humor you.

Yes, in point of fact, I agree with you that the WSs could be better, as they stand now, and no, I don't feel that SE has made the right move. But to think you are OH SO IMPORTANT that SE is so blown away by your OMGFEEDBACK that they must be IGNORING you, rather than... you know, thinking about how to fix it for the next update, or something sane like that. You, and people like you, are not, and will NEVER be, the only FFXI players worthy of consideration, and what you call YOUR ability to function in the game the way you want to... well, that's not yours and never was.

Sure, you can say "Well, if you do X, and Y, and Z, that will fix things", and you'd probably be at least partly right. But then you run the risk of upsetting people that say "OMG THINGS ARE UNBALANCED NOW BECAUSE MY JOB IS NERFED/THIS OTHER JOB IS NOW SOOOOO OP" because of THEIR overweening sense of entitlement, and the cycle starts all over again.

The other option is for SE to stop, take stock of things, go through a few meetings, and then slowly try to address issues,but oh no, that takes SO LOOOOOOOONG, YOU'RE BEING IGNORED.

And don't give me any bullshit about "everyone hates the new WSs/cares about the new .dats/misses the level of power they had with their jobs", that's false consensus at work. Sure, the people who complain about it don't like it, but that's all we know because the others aren't talking, because it's not worth the effort arguing with someone who's already angry to start with.

And this stuff about repainting .dats... Could you find something more inconsequential to complain about? Seriously, it makes you look like an ass. "Laziness" has nothing to do with it, rather not having the money to pay graphic designers has something to do with it. Yeah, it's not great, and I'd love new armor looks too, but seriously... that was a low blow with no possible constructive consequence.

Yeah, you're frustrated, and I want to say I understand why, but I'd be lying because I don't. All I see is someone complaining because the world doesn't sufficiently revolve around him. And if you'd tried, you could probably have extrapolated most of that from my original comment, but you didn't, and chose to essentially say "Yeah, I'm entitled, so what?" So I've probably wasted my time. Oh well.

ETA: I should add, because I forgot, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with complaining, and it serves a useful function. It is, after all, what SE claims they created these forums for. But there's a line after which complaining stops being constructive and starts feeding on itself and existing for its own sake. There's a line between "This is wrong" and "This is wrong and you're lazy for not having fixed it yet", in other words. Please grow up.

[Sparthos]

"Lack of substance"? What else do you want me to say? I don't feel the refrain of "OMG THEY ARE NOT LISTENING BECAUSE MY FAVORITE TOY IS BEING TAKEN AWAY" is worth humoring by saying anything else. I can do without "conversation" about that. Of course, the other option was to say nothing, but then, if I did that, that's like caving before I even started, and I refuse to let these pompous, self-aggrandizing, egotistical temper tantrums continue without at least commenting. So I'll humor you.

I dont know how many times I've said that my commentary on SE isn't meant to be compel the developers because I'm aware that nothing and I mean nothing will ever get through to these guys be it from a Japanese source, EU or NA. Sorry, but the Sparthos who thinks that he can change the minds of Ito, Tanaka and co. is on another forum - the one inside your head. I'm just here for the lulz, the occasional dissection of others logic and you're free to do the same to all my posts.

Egotistical? Don't make me laugh. Nothing I've said hasn't been said by numerous voices before me and will continue to be said so long as SE continues to remind individuals why XI has been the way it's been for years.

Yes, in point of fact, I agree with you that the WSs could be better, as they stand now, and no, I don't feel that SE has made the right move. But to think you are OH SO IMPORTANT that SE is so blown away by your OMGFEEDBACK that they must be IGNORING you, rather than... you know, thinking about how to fix it for the next update, or something sane like that. You, and people like you, are not, and will NEVER be, the only FFXI players worthy of consideration, and what you call YOUR ability to function in the game the way you want to... well, that's not yours and never was.

Stop being a moron. What I have said about the weaponskills is the same thing HUNDREDS of people have said yet you think I claim this feedback as my own? No, I'm just projecting that SE can have the answers right before them (NA have said it, JP have said it and EU say it) yet still make the wrong decision because the dev team operates in vacuum and can't see when the base thinks a bad idea is bad.

It's amusing really.

Sure, you can say "Well, if you do X, and Y, and Z, that will fix things", and you'd probably be at least partly right. But then you run the risk of upsetting people that say "OMG THINGS ARE UNBALANCED NOW BECAUSE MY JOB IS NERFED/THIS OTHER JOB IS NOW SOOOOO OP" because of THEIR overweening sense of entitlement, and the cycle starts all over again.

Someone's going to complain if Resqiscat becomes marginally more useful? If Entropy got a boost? If Voidwatch goes from completely random logs/ore to a point system? You're damn right someone will but that's irrelevant as the overall reception is what matters.

People don't like the random aspect of Voidwatch and SE's solution? Add a white proc under the logic that more kills = better chance at loot while completely missing the point that the likelihood of going 0/200 is still possible or watching some person get the HQ drop 5x and toss it cause they can only hold one.

Uh SE, that isn't what was asked for.

This is the problem plaguing SE. Time and time again they refuse to get ahead of the problem and squash it before it becomes a widespread issue that threatens/annoys/infuriates the base. Voidwatch? WoE? The Relic/Mythic/Empyrean upgrade issues? There is a whole thread on the insanity of 500 PW kills for a 99 Mythic that could have been resolved by one statement from a dev:

"We had no intention to ever set the Mythic 99 requirements at 500 Wardens. This was merely a placeholder number used during development and does not reflect in any way on the finished product."

Did we get that? Nope and so the base is further led to questioning if SE is returning to insanity grinds.

The other option is for SE to stop, take stock of things, go through a few meetings, and then slowly try to address issues,but oh no, that takes SO LOOOOOOOONG, YOU'RE BEING IGNORED.

Address things slowly.... now that's a side-splitter. You mean like how it took 3 years to finish WOTG? How everything is always delayed? I know content isn't built overnight but lets be serious, should the base have to wait years for simple WS tweaks or correcting minor discrepancies? This has been an issue with SE from the time this game was being funded well right up to the present.

Sometime the years they take to address issues winds up being either too little, too late or complete fail from the jump. It isn't like time makes some of these SE decisions better as you still have a good likelihood of getting utter rubbish. This is partially why people were so stunned at how quick issues regarding Abyssea were being addressed because for a microsecond SE was behaving like a top-tier MMO developer and people liked it.

And don't give me any bullshit about "everyone hates the new WSs/cares about the new .dats/misses the level of power they had with their jobs", that's false consensus at work. Sure, the people who complain about it don't like it, but that's all we know because the others aren't talking, because it's not worth the effort arguing with someone who's already angry to start with.

Except the issue isn't about all the new weaponskills? It's about the completely stupid logic the devs gave regarding Realmrazer, Resquiscat, Ruinator and Entropy and further to their concepts of balance. Bringing up level 60 weaponskills you naturally learn versus weaponskills that are supposed to capstone jobs after grinding many merits shows how out of touch SE is with the word 'progression'.

Yeah, weaponskills like Shoha/Last Stand have no problems smoking their previous incarnations but suddenly balance must be preserved between Rampage/Ruinator and Hexa/Realmrazer? Give me a break and be consistent SE. I understood the Ukko's nerf but to then give SAM an extremely powerful WS in Shoha with absolutely no balancer (like a CHR or INT mod)? Wut.

[Ravenmore]

The white knighters for SE for this game are just as sad as those for FF14. Look how long it took them to kick Tanaka off FF14 and admit they $%^ed up, it only took them not even getting 50k players to play a FREE game. Yet the white knighters will continue to defend a Company that can't even get people to play a free game. So white Knighter how does it feel for for all the money you give SE to be wasted on FF14, because its clear very little makes it back into FFXI.

[Potyhoty]

I dont know how many times I've said that my commentary on SE isn't meant to be compel the developers because I'm aware that nothing and I mean nothing will ever get through to these guys be it from a Japanese source, EU or NA.

Ah, ok. But you claim that SE is "ignoring" you (and, parenthetically, others), based on 2 weeks of them doing nothing over the holidays? How is that different from expecting to "compel" them?

Egotistical? Don't make me laugh. Nothing I've said hasn't been said by numerous voices before me and will continue to be said so long as SE continues to remind individuals why XI has been the way it's been for years.

Yeah, many voices (many, many voices) agree with you, and they're not all wrong either. The people that disagree with you, on the other hand, mostly say nothing because there's nothing they're unhappy about. They're not all wrong either, though, and I think dismissing them is pretty egotistical, yeah.

Stop being a moron. What I have said about the weaponskills is the same thing HUNDREDS of people have said yet you think I claim this feedback as my own? No, I'm just projecting that SE can have the answers right before them (NA have said it, JP have said it and EU say it) yet still make the wrong decision because the dev team operates in vacuum and can't see when the base thinks a bad idea is bad.

STOP TRYING TO SPEAK FOR THE PLAYER BASE. YOU CANNOT.

You are NOT the base, nor is anyone else who happens to agree with you (possibly including me). THIS is what I mean by egotism. I am not a moron for pointing this out. YOU thinking SE has the answers before them =/= SE actually having the answers before them, except in your myopic worldview.

Someone's going to complain if Resqiscat becomes marginally more useful? If Entropy got a boost? If Voidwatch goes from completely random logs/ore to a point system? You're damn right someone will but that's irrelevant as the overall reception is what matters.

Indeed. I agree with you there. But there are many people, casual players, who think the points system is a bad idea because hardcore players will end up monopolizing the gear, and then we have the original FFXI endgame all over again. But oh, that's not a concern, because those players don't DESERVE the items, right...?

Again, not saying I disagree with you (I don't), just saying that a lot of people disagree with us. And dismissing the concerns of those who do as "in a minority" is... not egotistical, but egocentric, especially since you don't have the stats in front of you (and even if you did, there's still a lot of caution that you're throwing to the wind).

People don't like the random aspect of Voidwatch

"People" being you and me and most of the other people on the forums apparently dedicated to complaining about things that SE has done wrong (and, in fairness, there's a lot to complain about). NOT the entire player base, or even most of it, necessarily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect

This is the problem plaguing SE. Time and time again they refuse to get ahead of the problem

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)

and squash it before it becomes a widespread issue that threatens/annoys/infuriates the base.

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)

Voidwatch? WoE? The Relic/Mythic/Empyrean upgrade issues? There is a whole thread on the insanity of 500 PW kills for a 99 Mythic that could have been resolved by one statement from a dev:

"We had no intention to ever set the Mythic 99 requirements at 500 Wardens. This was merely a placeholder number used during development and does not reflect in any way on the finished product."

Yeah, that could have helped, for sure. SE screwed up there.

Did we get that? Nope and so the base is further led to questioning if SE is returning to insanity grinds.

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)

Address things slowly.... now that's a side-splitter. You mean like how it took 3 years to finish WOTG? How everything is always delayed?

Yes, like that.

I know content isn't built overnight but lets be serious, should the base have to wait years for simple WS tweaks or correcting minor discrepancies? This has been an issue with SE from the time this game was being funded well right up to the present.

2 months =/= 3 years. And yes, I'd rather things were done well in the first place. "Those who act in haste oft repent at leisure." I'm not saying this will always be the case, and certainly SE has messed up things by waiting too long, but I don't see how that applies to the current situation.

Sometime the years they take to address issues winds up being either too little, too late or complete fail from the jump. It isn't like time makes some of these SE decisions better as you still have a good likelihood of getting utter rubbish.

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)

Except the issue isn't about all the new weaponskills? It's about the completely stupid logic the devs gave regarding Realmrazer, Resquiscat, Ruinator and Entropy and further to their concepts of balance. Bringing up level 60 weaponskills you naturally learn versus weaponskills that are supposed to capstone jobs after grinding many merits shows how out of touch SE is with the word 'progression'.

And who said it was supposed to be a "progression" as opposed to a side-grade? Oh, that's right, you did.

Yeah, weaponskills like Shoha/Last Stand have no problems smoking their previous incarnations but suddenly balance must be preserved between Rampage/Ruinator and Hexa/Realmrazer? Give me a break and be consistent SE. I understood the Ukko's nerf but to then give SAM an extremely powerful WS in Shoha with absolutely no balancer (like a CHR or INT mod)? Wut.

Yeah, you're right about that, to be sure, as things stand now.

Man... I feel dirty for being angry, like I've infected myself with the disease here. Just taken big handfuls of filthy water and chugged them right down. I'm going to have a heart attack at this rate, and yet for some reason, it's too compelling to stop. I don't mean to insult or degrade you, I really don't. I'm having a tough time getting that across, though.

Ravenmore: If you think I'm white-knighting, please read my posts again. Thank you.

[Gokku]

And who said it was supposed to be a "progression" as opposed to a side-grade? Oh, that's right, you did.

so what your saying is level 60+ is no longer progression, and from 60-99 everything we do and earn is justifiably a side-grade?

[Ravenmore]

Said it in another thread, the White Knights for FF11 are just as sad as those for FF14. They want to defend SE and everything they do cause they think that is what a loyel fan(boy) does. Its a freaking Pve game why do they have to nerf anything they could bring the other jobs up. The reason they don't bring the other jobs up is they are dumping nearly every bit of profit from FF11 into the money pit called FF14 so nerfing jobs is easier and cheaper then doing the work needed to buff and balance.

That is what you White Knights of SE are defending, lazy cheap get by for the least amount of investment. I can't wait till FF14 2.0 to be eatten alive in the reviews. They will point to its failed launch, SE slow reactions, not listening to feed back and last but not least how badly they treated the other mmo that was making them a profit.

[Runespider]

Indeed. I agree with you there. But there are many people, casual players, who think the points system is a bad idea because hardcore players will end up monopolizing the gear, and then we have the original FFXI endgame all over again. But oh, that's not a concern, because those players don't DESERVE the items, right...?

A points system is good for everyone, for casuals they can join proper shells setup to get gear from VW and hardcore players can make proper progress instead of the current totally random unrewarding mess. Current system puts casuals off more than hardcore because after 10+ runs getting nothing they won't wanna do it anymore.

[Ravenmore]

A points system is good for everyone, for casuals they can join proper shells setup to get gear from VW and hardcore players can make proper progress instead of the current totally random unrewarding mess. Current system puts casuals off more than hardcore because after 10+ runs getting nothing they won't wanna do it anymore.

I think he might be missing the point and confusing player based point sustem with game based point system. What Runspider wants is a point system like assault not a player based system like DKP.

[Potyhoty]

Said it in another thread, the White Knights for FF11 are [snip]

First of all, I assume you mean PvE. Second, are you reading what I said? What about what I'm saying strikes you as white-knighting? I'm not defending SE, I'm attacking YOU for being so ugly about their mistakes. You're ending up looking even worse than they are, IMO.

so what your saying is level 60+ is no longer progression, and from 60-99 everything we do and earn is justifiably a side-grade?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Personally (and I am talking JUST personally here, I am NOT demanding that things change) it always irked me that once you got a new WS, the others became more or less completely useless and were just taking up space. And unlike gear where you have to make decisions as to what to carry and wear, the weapon skills are just speed bumps. I would like to see WSs develop into more of a situational tool where skill is required to know which WS to use.

But that's just me, and there's certainly nothing wrong with wanting the current system to extend further. In fact, it does make a bit more sense that way. There is however, at least in my view, something wrong with DEMANDING it based on YOUR assumption of how the game should progress, and being all angry when SE or anyone else doesn't cave immediately.

A points system is good for everyone, for casuals they can join proper shells setup to get gear from VW and hardcore players can make proper progress instead of the current totally random unrewarding mess. Current system puts casuals off more than hardcore because after 10+ runs getting nothing they won't wanna do it anymore.

Well, I agree. But not everyone is gonna see it that way, especially if the point costs are high for the really good items. Yeah, it would be unjustifiable in my view for people to whine and say they'll never get a fazheluo mail because they have to do voidwatch, say, 100 times. But you know it will happen. What makes you so sure that our concerns are the "majority" or "eminent" or "compelling"? Just because we have them?



Look, I agree with the gist of what you all are saying, I'm just arguing for a modicum of civil discourse instead of this constant whining about how "we're being ignored". It's not only unproductive to expect SE to listen to us just because we happen to be right, it's also quite unseemly. We made our point, there's a possibility they've listened even if they haven't done anything yet, so we should shut up instead of QQing all over the place and being all OMG ANGRY because you're ENTITLED to having things fixed the way YOU want and when YOU want, REGARDLESS OF HOW RIGHT YOU ARE.

And yes, I'm whining and angry quite a lot myself, which seems like a contradiction, but it isn't. You are (I hope) the sole agents responsible for your own behavior, unlike SE. So if I'm white-knighting for anything, it's not SE, but rather the prerogative a company has to listen to their entire player base, not just a vocal minority like us.

[Meyi]

And I know and I agree. That's why I complain along with them. I'm not satisfied with much of what's going on.

If you agree then stop arguing, please.

All I'm doing is pointing out the stupidity in other people's posts.

You're also being a condescending jerk when you do it. Cut it out. There's a difference between pointing out the flaws in someone's argument and being an ass.

But when he goes and starts to insult him and throw random (wrong) statements around, I will call him out.

At least do it maturely.

I really don't get why people don't get this. Lately it seems I have to justify my actions more than actually argue against actual issues on here. Are you all in some anti-Tanaka cult together or something? And because I'm trying to say he's not the evil overlord you all have it in for me now? I honestly don't get it.

No, we're just anti-rudeness. :/ I don't know Tanaka well enough to judge his personality or morale and therefore I refrain from judging him. I think the majority of people on this board are angry because they feel they are being ignored by the very people who are supposed to be listening to them. We are their paying customers, and they should be trying to please at least 51% of us.

The only reason we have it out for you is because of your tactless attacks. Nobody cares if you tell it from the developer's point of view -- I actually think that's quite charming and balanced. However, the way you go about presenting your side is disgusting and pisses us off.

Again, how are those "Abyssea era" patches? Runespider already called them that, and I explained, in detail, why they aren't from the Abyssea era. They all happened within the last half year. I'd call that VW era. Or not? Explain why I'm wrong instead of just replaying Runespider's words.

I say no because Abyssea was still huge just six months ago. Six months ago was late June. Abyssea was pretty huge even into September. I remember when I quit for college classes around October/November everyone was still doing Abyssea nonstop, with Voidwatch just starting to creep into the picture. When I came back in late November/early December, Voidwatch had become the new thing and Abyssea, while it's still being played in today, has lost its throne.

So no I'd say it mostly happened during the Abyssea era. The ???s were for Abyssea NMs, you know.