The new ones are impossible without temps, they don't make them easier they are made with them in mind.And yet there are people screaming for SE to nerf VWNM temp items and stuff because they think it's cheating and making them "too easy".
It just hit a new low for me...
An afk pink THF who died at the start of a Kaggen fight, and stayed dead for the duration, was rewarded with a shiny new body...
Yea the VW drop rate's are utter garbage, i've done about 138 fights and ive gotten 2 pieces of gear, Mantis Eye and Ganesha's Mask....
Last edited by Neofire; 01-01-2012 at 08:29 AM.
Realistically, the problem isn't the drop rates at all. You guys need to stop saying the drop rates are the issue, while at the same time talking about how common it is to have one person get 4-5 of the same thing.
The issue is the drop distribution. And the distribution is what SE claims is awesome, and allows you to earn [SIZE="6"]FIVE TIMES AS MUCH LOOT[/SIZE]. Obviously, that's a complete crock, because the devs have no idea what the players consider "loot".
the devs look at the loot pool and see: a couple of awesome, rare pieces of armor, weapons, or magian trial items, crafting resources that give good, but not as awesome as the actual armor, crafted armor versions of the NM drops, and awesome, rare crafting resources like high level logs and ores.
What they forget is:
1: Players have NEVER wanted or hoped to get rare crafting materials like logs and ores from difficult nms. They have always been the "junk drop" that end up getting thrown away or sold to vendors for pocket change.
2: They killed crafting when they introduced synergy, so the number of crafters who actually benefit from being able to procure rare, high level source materials is rather low, because the number of high level crafters who actually profit at all from their craft, let alone profit against the initial investment required to use those high level logs/ores, is miserably close to none of them. Except for cooks and dragon meat recipes, high level crafters pretty much have to get lucky, or level a completely different craft (synergy) to turn a profit.
3: By forcing the entirety of the random loot pool to be divide up into individual rewards that can't be traded around, it completely negates the backwards logic that we could possibly leave VW with five times the reward of previous NM systems. They intended for this system to prevent 1 person from getting the entire pool, but in reality, this system makes 1 person getting the entire pool (in terms of reward value) the only common result, and eliminates the players' ability to at least assure the one person who gets the reward can actually benefit from it.
No matter how awful drop rates were in the past, at least the players had some control over who got what when something did drop, VW eliminates that one saving grace of a low drop rate system.
It feels like their intention was either to create a system that prevented ninja lotting (if you want to believe they were trying to be benevolent), or more likely, to create a system that prevented the players from being able to use DKP type systems to determine who gets rewarded, because people who didn't have the time to devote to a group constantly whined about "The horrible HNMLS leaders who always played favorites always". It seems like their thought process was "This is more fair than letting those awful, greedy players try and divide loot like civil adults, because a few random people are greedier than normal"
Basically, the devs have absolutely no idea what types of systems players use to determine fairness of drop distribution, and just assumed that "We're the devs, we know best" when they obviously don't know what they're doing, at all, and have continued to prove the fact that they have no idea what they're doing every update since abyssea.
I suggested a point system where rare/ex gear cant be bought, but the synths for the ah gear, the hmp, the mirrors and such, can be bought with points. This gives meaning to all those runs when your getting nothing but logs because logs are nothing, at least your building towards something.
All rare/ex gear from your chest can be declined and converted into points. This gives meaning to your fifth and sixth duplicate rare/ex.
Do the same thing for WOE, points for coins. Add some great rare/ex gear that cant be bought with points but reward points for steady progress towards a linear goal. Make WOE not a pet job only, dd auto-rr garbage thats no fun.
Last edited by Concerned4FFxi; 01-01-2012 at 11:10 AM.
Originally Posted by Kincard
Really the problem is that there is just nothing else to do, VW is the only thing to do that you can class as proper endgame now. It's the only endgame event, there isn't very much of it and the rewards are almost nil (random is horse crap too, totally fair someone goes 1/1 and others go 0/200 right?..that's worse than the grind itself. The fights were fun at first but they are boring as shit now due to constant repetition of the same 3 over and over, Jeuno T3 NMs can kiss my ass.
You hate it, you say you won't do it anymore cause it's stupid but there is nothing else to damn well do. So you force yourself to carry on doing it and it makes you more and more annoyed with FFXI. It really is annoying enough to make people quit atm, it's just that bad.
Seriously stop messing around and fix this drop system, it's making people quit or get really fed up. Fix this with the next update please, it's totally stupid now.
I feel there's an internal memo from the dev to the moogle readers here that, at this point, do not repost anything about the vw loot system from the player base, all decisions have been made and are final. Sold as is, no refunds.
Originally Posted by Kincard
The general consensus among the player base is for a change to a point system rather than random drops. But which kind of point system are we aiming for and which would be best to reward players participating and promote longevity of the event? Additionally, should there be random drops of the items we are working to purchase with points, possibly with a reduced droprate? There are several systems for points we can put in place.
1. Global Point System - This is probably the system most are imagining when we say point system. You kill something, you obtain points and trade a set amount for an item, very similar to slaughtering things for gil drops. Lower tiers of NMs would have to be worth significantly less than higher tiers. Otherwise, we'll just happily steamroll the tier 1 NMs for 100 points vs taking time and risk against tier 4 NMs for 130 points. If a body is worth 10k points and the tiers go 1>10>100>1000, 10 tier 4 NMs would get us a body, but if you can't kill the tier 4, you can make do with more of the tier 3 or, heaven forbid, tier 2 or 1.
There are a lot of pros associated with this. If while working on one of your melee pieces and partway through something better is released or the RNG blinks and works in your favor giving you your precious, your points are still able to be used for other items, possibly that nice nuking piece you sort of liked but not as much as precious. This system we know works, it's simple, straightforward and easily tracks progress to what you want. Except for the speed of acquisition this is pretty much perfect from a player perspective.
Developer perspective is somewhat less perfect. If players spend any decent amount of time with this system, they will accumulate points, and probably a lot of points, similarly to how many of us have more Cruor and Dominion Points than we know what to do with. And we all know we would, some of us would need less items than others so would not spend their points, but still come to the event to help others in their group, and of course, a few new people will join, prolonging the event's life a little more, but eventually it will die down as people get what they need and move on to do other things. Generally a designer would want to then release VW Tavnazia or some new shinies for people to want, or both. A lot of people will already have a pool in which to buy the new items and skip the new branch of the event, or do it once or twice for something to kill time. These global point systems have the potential to kill later expansions leaving it dead content.
So are there other possible point systems we can look to? Probably not ones we would be as happy with, but we can try.
2. Magian Trial Point System - Probably could call it a Credit System with how people would react to it, but trying to brainstorm different point systems. This is based per NM. You want Mextli Harness you need to be killing Hahava. Pick an item you want to work towards at the Rift and as you kill it the points fill up. Just as an example Body is 0/20, get 1 point for killing, 1 point for max red light and 1 point for max blue light, so each round is potentially 3/20. Kill 7 times with maxed red and blue light would put you at 21/20 and the Body spawns in your chest. Any additional points above 20 are lost, they do not roll over to the next item you want starting you at 1/20, otherwise we're back to the Global Point System again. Same if you decide you no longer want the item and it's at 18/20 and you want something else, you lose all progress and start at 0/20 on that item 2. If you choose to go back to item 1 it's at 0/20 again. If you forget to pick an item before fighting, any points you would have gained would have been lost. You can pick different items for different NMs without losing progress. Example: Mextli Harness is at 18/20 and your group decided to leave and fight Voidwrought for a bit. You can work on Fazheluo Radiant Mail without losing your progress on Mextli Harness since they are from different NMs. On reflection maybe can halve the accumulated points each time you change items instead so being at 10/20 and then changing makes the new item 5/20.
From a player perspective this would probably be the least liked point system. For one, it is a very wasteful system, any excess points you get are lost. I guess it could be adjusted so if you are at 19/20 and get 3 points during the next battle the additional 2 could roll over to the next item but no additional points would be gained until a new item is picked so you can't do 2 more 3 point battles and start at 8/20 on the next item. If you decide to change your mind what to get partway through, or noticed you picked the wrong thing and need to change your pick, you lose all your progress. If there is nothing you particularly want and don't pick something to work towards, you obtain literally nothing. Second, it puts the responsibility onto the players to work towards their rewards. Not entirely a bad thing, but like there are players who cannot for the life of them remember to bring a RR item, there will be players who will go for the entire event and forget to pick something to work towards.
From a developer's standpoint, this probably works out best. If they add something new, players have to play the content to obtain the new stuff, at least several times over. It can be released at any time from tomorrow to next year without players having a head start on it. They can add a new item to existing NMs or add entirely new NMs paths and players would need to play the content. They probably should add in a bunch of new items to each NM though that players would see as worthwhile. Most VW NMs have like 1-2 items worth getting excluding the 1500 HMP players need to WoE weapons.
3. Group Point System - Similar to the Global Point System except the points can only be used within the same path: Windurst, Jeuno, San d'Oria, or Bastok. Points gained fighting Windurst NMs would only be used towards items along the Windurst path. If you want something along the Bastok path you would need to fight Bastok NMs. It would need large jumps between tiers to prevent players from spamming lower tier NMs for easy points, similar to the Global System. It could be made so that you can use points from one group like Windurst to pay for items from Jeuno for an increased cost as well to prevent total losses in point use.
It's less ideal for players. While they can still work towards a wanted item it would be specific only to that path, however there is no loss in points, outside of "there's nothing more I want from here," but if higher tiers are unlocked or new items introduced in the path the points would be there to be used.
It is more ideal for developers. New paths mean new content for players to play that would not be affected by the player's current standing in previous areas.
4. Tiered Point System - Same as Group Point System except by tier with about the same result. Probably slightly more liked by the players than with the Group System since a lot of the good stuff is from higher tiers. The points for various items and the points gained would probably be pretty equal in each tier since fighting 30 tier 1 have no effect on tier 4 items. The same method of spending more points for items of a different tier could be utilized as well.
5. NM Specific Point System - Each NM has its own points to be used for its own items. It's basically the same as the Magian Trial Point System without the restrictions. If you didn't like Magian System you probably don't like this one, so it's like a choice between getting shot in the foot or stabbed in the foot, not enough difference to really care. If there were more items per NM, it wouldn't be quite so bad. Perhaps like with the Tiered and Group Point Systems an extra cost of outside items could be allowed.
To be honest, Global Points would probably have the highest point value per item of any point systems we come up with. The more restrictions we have in place the lower the cost for items should be. Also, random drops should remain for systems 1, 3, 4 and 5. System 2 is the only one I could see the removal of random drops being reasonable and that one the points should be the lowest of all 5 systems.
So do we as the players see only System 1 as the only logical path to take, or do Systems 2-5 have any merit? Can we come up with anything better than what is written here?
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