Re: [dev1064] Job Adjustments: Weapon Skills

[Cream_Soda]

For those situations, you have Stardiver, which is even better than Shoha w/ a high enough C-ratio and not to forget the instant boost of Overwhelm you get from the beginning

[saevel]

For those situations, you have Stardiver, which is even better than Shoha w/ a high enough C-ratio and not to forget the instant boost of Overwhelm you get from the beginning

And DRG's have drakesbane which is superior to Stardiver. Heck SD is just another version of penta.

SAM's don't have high attack nor powerful JT / JAs. Their entire focus is getting TP at an insane rate and spamming WS or making SC's. They were only *powerful* back at 75 because any idiot could buy a hagun and get decent performance without BRD's and COR's buffing them to high hell. We don't exactly fight those monsters anymore, there isn't any super big HNM fight where you would throw tons of melee's at it to kill. Now we have VWNM which is all about hitting procs not spamming a single powerful WS to kill it ASAP. In this regard AH WAR's with all their WS's unlocked are more valuable then a Shoha SAM.

[Cream_Soda]

Yea, tell that to my friend who was spamming 6k Stardivers on exp mobs and 4-5k Stardivers on NMs last night.

SAM's don't have high attack nor powerful JT / JAs.

Yup, meditate
Store TP
Hasso
Seigan
Third eye
Sekkanoki
Hagakure

Are not powerful JT/ JAs, they are amongst the weakest in the entire game!

[Neisan_Quetz]

Stardiver's doesn't have Drakesbane's or Penta's attack penalties, has high Str mod and 4 hits, it can't crit but on harder mobs at 5/5 it's almost likely Drg's best WS.

[saevel]

Yea, tell that to my friend who was spamming 6k Stardivers on exp mobs and 4-5k Stardivers on NMs last night.


Yup, meditate
Store TP
Hasso
Seigan
Third eye
Sekkanoki
Hagakure

Are not powerful JT/ JAs, they are amongst the weakest in the entire game!

Of course your "XP" mobs are EP and your inside Abyssea. Same DRG can get higher Drakesbanes if they wanted.

Hasso / Seigan / Meditate are all available to everything /SAM, infact DRG, DRK and WAR are pretty much always /SAM.

Which leaves ..
Store TP III+ and the various toy abilities for SC. The SC abilities are useless with multiple people as TP spam will ruin any SC you attempt to pull off. So yeah SAM has ... Store TP and ... more Store TP.

Now stop hating.

[Cream_Soda]

I can't remember the last time I used staff on mnk.

Just in abyssea, you say? Ghaleon's Stardivers were outperforming his Shohas in VW as well.

As far as drg goes, maybe it can get more dmg from drakes than it can from stardiver, but w/ Overwhelm in play, I don't see drg outdoing sam in the ws department on polearm (as well as the fact that sam can 4hit polearm).


Though, I guess if you suck or something then the job may reflect that to you and that'd be the results difference we're seeing.

[saevel]

I can't remember the last time I used staff on mnk.

Just in abyssea, you say? Ghaleon's Stardivers were outperforming his Shohas in VW as well.

As far as drg goes, maybe it can get more dmg from drakes than it can from stardiver, but w/ Overwhelm in play, I don't see drg outdoing sam in the ws department on polearm (as well as the fact that sam can 4hit polearm).


Though, I guess if you suck or something then the job may reflect that to you and that'd be the results difference we're seeing.

You can't defend your position so now your resorting to ad hominem attacks.

SD has already been tested, your blowing smoke through people's arses and expecting us to believe it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Stardiver

4 hit WS, 0.75 fTP on all hits at 100 TP. That equals 3.0 fTP worth of damage at an accuracy rate of 81.4% (.95^4). Including belts and gorgets your at 0.95 fTP per hit for a total of 3.8 fTP total. It can't crit and thus is limited to a ratio of 2.25, this is before LCF takes a chunk out of it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Drakesbane

Drakesbane is four hits at 1.0 fTP each, so a total of 4.0 fTP, 4.2 with gorgets (~meh). There is an attack penalty but the WS can crit which radically raise's it's average cRatio. It's also 50% STR WSC so while it lags behind SD in WSC it more then makes it up in fTP and cRatio. SD is just Penta +1, Drakes crush's it completely, especially on a DRG/SAM spamming it at 100TP.

Now for Shoha, which should be beating SD on almost anything higher then T.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Tachi:_Shoha

1.375 at 100 TP, but no SAM should be using it without a TP bonus GKT, so really 2.15 fTP at 100TP. Add in WS gorget / belt and you get 2.45 and another 1.0 for the additional hit for a total of 3.45 fTP on two hits which will land 90% of the time. Same WSC as SD at 100% STR but with attack bonus.

Thus you get 3.8 fTP on four hits vs 3.45 fTP on two hits but with attack bonus. SD will beat Shoha but only on targets where you'd be capping attack anyway. On anything your not capping attack then Shoha wins. And in both situations Drakes should win.

The abyssea comment was about you stating 6K Shoha's, like they were doing them on upper tier VWNMs, which we all know is BS.

Now if you really want to swing male genitals around and measure then I'll see your SD and raise you one Resolution.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Resolution

0.71 fTP five hit GSWD WS at 100% STR. With gorgets it's 0.91 fTP for 4.55 total fTP at 77% of the time. It has a 8% attack penalty, but thankfully the job that will be using this has ridiculous levels of attack to begin with (DRK). I was getting 6K on Resolution at 4/5 merits, at 5/5 it's even better. Not to mention the job that would be using this also gets Soul Eater which in turn adds a couple hundred damage extra per hit.

But seriously, SAM is just so broken, people aren't even inviting WAR's and MNK's anymore ..... [/sarcasm]

[Cream_Soda]

Forgetting that you can 4hit SD on sam buddy

My point still stands on the fact that sam has some amazing JAs (since you didn't address that at all).

On sam vs drg ws, you're forgetting overwhelm again (or failed to address it in the first place)

[Motenten]

SD has already been tested, your blowing smoke through people's arses and expecting us to believe it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Stardiver

4 hit WS, 0.75 fTP on all hits at 100 TP. That equals 3.0 fTP worth of damage at an accuracy rate of 81.4% (.95^4). Including belts and gorgets your at 0.95 fTP per hit for a total of 3.8 fTP total. It can't crit and thus is limited to a ratio of 2.25, this is before LCF takes a chunk out of it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Drakesbane

Drakesbane is four hits at 1.0 fTP each, so a total of 4.0 fTP, 4.2 with gorgets (~meh). There is an attack penalty but the WS can crit which radically raise's it's average cRatio. It's also 50% STR WSC so while it lags behind SD in WSC it more then makes it up in fTP and cRatio. SD is just Penta +1, Drakes crush's it completely, especially on a DRG/SAM spamming it at 100TP.

You seem to be missing a few key points in the damage calculations.

Aside from the remainder of their gear, drg will have an advantage when it comes to weapons. Lvl 95 str magian polearm has 9 dmg, 10 str and 24 att over the best sam can get, the Draca Couse. Drg also has the advantage in skill, with 36 more than sam. On the surface that would seem to give a notable edge to drg.

Vs. a fodder level mob (no level correction) with low defense (favors Stardiver strongly over Shoha), it still takes a fairly substantial amount of attack to cap. The difference in att between drg and sam is about the same as what's gained by the weapon and skill (~64 total). If we allow that attack isn't quite capped (800 att won't cap vs a mob with just 378 def), raw weaponskill damage of course favors drg, 2520 to 2291. Drg has a 10% lead.

However Overwhelm is quite a substantial bonus. 19% damage, plus whatever the relic+2 augment adds (potentially another 5%, based on how other gear augments work; not including that for now). That puts the sam's final damage at 2726.

In addition, the sam will have a 4-hit build, while the drg will likely only have a 6-hit unless using a Store TP magian (and so doesn't reach 5-hit for this example, since we're using the str magian). That puts the overall DPS (leaving in jumps for drg and Hasso for both, but excluding Meditate and other sam JAs) for the sam at 257, while the drg is at 211 -- nearly 22% more damage overall. Even if the sam never gets to use Overwhelm, it's still at 226 DPS due to the better x-hit.

Oh, and Drakesbane? 1962 for this soft target compared to 2520 Stardiver, for the drg (outside Abyssea, obviously). That -20% attack hurts a lot when you can't count on the crits, and would hurt even more on mobs with level correction as a factor.

SD will beat Shoha but only on targets where you'd be capping attack anyway. On anything your not capping attack then Shoha wins.

Partly correct. You don't need to be capping attack for Stardiver to be better. Anything over roughly 1.65 cRatio (after level correction) should favor Stardiver. Obviously the higher the mob level, the more difficult that threshhold is to reach, and you won't ever get it on mobs over level 111.

And in both situations Drakes should win.

No. In fact, the types of mobs where you'd expect Drakes to be favored (high def, so crits are worth more) also more heavily penalize Drakes (greater level correction exacerbates the -def effect), such that unless you're getting a substantial crit rate boost, Stardiver should almost always win.

You go from Stardiver being 28% ahead of Drakes on fodder mobs to it being 27% ahead on high level, high def mobs, to being 21% ahead at 300 TP (unless Drakes scales crit rate vs TP faster than expected). Drakes only wins in Abyssea, or when you're significantly over-capping attack.

[saevel]

So basically, if drakes NEVER crits, then SD / Shoha wins huh.

Considering that the strongest part of that WS is it's criticals, that's kinda besides the point isn't it.