Thief and the Last Stand

[Zirael]

Culverin+1 is still an extremely powerful Gun even at 99, you're just offset by unstackable ammo.

Same logic can be applied for using Omphalos Bullet to Wildfire. What would you tell someone suggesting that tho?
Leaden Salute and Slug Shot are still extremely powerful weapon skills even at 99, so why don't you use them instead of Wildfire and Last Stand on your COR? That's right, their days of glory have faded away now.

Look, Thief is a guy whose uncle has just kicked the bucket and his share of the Will turns out to be a Porshe. The Thief guy has been actually into cycling his whole life, but freebies are freebies, so, whatever. Could use that Porsh to pick up some chicks, hit the beach or something. Then the Thief guy gives it a try and turns out the red Porsh won't even overtake his neighbour's rusty Volkswagen AND holds tops 0.5L of fuel. So the Thief guy starts to wonder, wasn't this three legged red mustang supposed to come with a parcel of NOS toolkit and a modded tank or something?

That's where Thief stands right now. I'm asking for some decent gun/crossbow and some decent ammo so that Thief & The Last Stand becomes more than an old man's last prank. We didn't ask for it, yet here it is. So, please make an already sidegrade weapon skill requiring 1M xp and locking you out of other 11 choices a worthwhile endeavour for Thief.
As of now my thoughts regarding Last Stand can be summed up by this pic:

[Zemarin]

Are u complaining? Asking a Question? Or making a statment cuz I really cant tell. First off X-bow didnt just end for thfs they ended for rng too, last xbow for rng sucks i only use the short delay ones like rapid bow... for a thf to moan about this WS is weird cause um... C+ skill is bound to nearly miss without that evasion down skill so yeee... if ur only a thf and not a rng i dunno why you would even suggest getting this WS but Good luck be to ya.

[Babekeke]

Exenterator > Last Stand = Light. And I assume vice-versa, but I'll confirm

Edit: it does.

[Zirael]

Are u complaining? Asking a Question? Or making a statment cuz I really cant tell. First off X-bow didnt just end for thfs they ended for rng too, last xbow for rng sucks i only use the short delay ones like rapid bow... for a thf to moan about this WS is weird cause um... C+ skill is bound to nearly miss without that evasion down skill so yeee... if ur only a thf and not a rng i dunno why you would even suggest getting this WS but Good luck be to ya.

A bit of everything. As you say, this weapon skill on Thief is currently pointless. I'd like to know what was the idea behind Thief getting it when no one asked for it really and if/what will be done to make it more than a bad joke. Most of those weapon skills you pay 1M xp look pretty, but... is that it? Makes no sense.

[noodles355]

Same logic can be applied for using Omphalos Bullet to Wildfire.

Did you really just compare using a craftable ammo with an inconvinient stack size, to a rare R/E voidwatch drop?

Leaden Salute and Slug Shot are still extremely powerful weapon skills even at 99, so why don't you use them instead of Wildfire and Last Stand on your COR?

Last Stand and Wildfire are stronger and deal more damage than Slug Shot and Leaden. Leaden Salute was never an "extremely powerful weaponskill" and it's still not, even with the WSDmg boost from 95 Death Penalty. I have no idea what point you were trying to make here.

I'd like to know what was the idea behind Thief getting it when no one asked for it really and if/what will be done to make it more than a bad joke. Most of those weapon skills you pay 1M xp look pretty, but... is that it? Makes no sense.

Probably the fact that it has high enough Marksmanship skill to use it? Bst and Rng can also use Dagger WS. Sam and Rdm can use Sword WS. Who cares?

Starting to remember why I stopped reading the official forums.

[Zirael]

Did you really just compare using a craftable ammo with an inconvinient stack size, to a rare R/E voidwatch drop?
Last Stand and Wildfire are stronger and deal more damage than Slug Shot and Leaden. Leaden Salute was never an "extremely powerful weaponskill" and it's still not, even with the WSDmg boost from 95 Death Penalty. I have no idea what point you were trying to make here.

Probably the fact that it has high enough Marksmanship skill to use it? Bst and Rng can also use Dagger WS. Sam and Rdm can use Sword WS. Who cares?

Starting to remember why I stopped reading the official forums.

You missed all the sarcasm from my post

[noodles355]

If it was sarcastic then that means you agree that Cluverin+1 and Cannon Shells are a decent, albeit inconvenient, way of getting decent damage out of Last Stand. In which case, what was the point in your post at all?

[Zirael]

If it was sarcastic then that means you agree that Cluverin+1 and Cannon Shells are a decent, albeit inconvenient, way of getting decent damage out of Last Stand. In which case, what was the point in your post at all?

They are decent because... that's the only option currently available, with the next best thing (Coffinmaker) having half of the combined damage of Armageddon and being ~33% weaker than Culverin+1 combo.
You'd call me retarded for suggesting to use Omphalos Bullet for Widfire, despite it being the best bullet for it; yet in the same sentence you'd tell me to humbly take Culverin and pew-pew with it? Omphalos and Culverin are both the best option available for their respective uses, but would any sane person go about making use of them in everyday situations? No. By applying this logic, you won't use Omphalos and miss out on 20% Widfire damage, I won't use Culverin+1 and will miss out on ~33% of DoT/WS damage (Culverin+1 vs Coffinmaker) or ~45% of all damage (Armageddon vs Coffinmaker). I hope you get my point.
If not: Omphalos is not a Wildfire option, Culverin+1 is not a damage dealing option for any fight/event lasting more than 30 seconds.

[noodles355]

You'd call me retarded for suggesting to use Omphalos Bullet for Widfire, despite it being the best bullet for it; yet in the same sentence you'd tell me to humbly take Culverin and pew-pew with it? Omphalos and Culverin are both the best option available for their respective uses

Yes but culverin isn't &@%$ing ra/ex with a shit drop rate.
Culverin is the strongest option. It takes up inconvinient inventory space, but is easilly accessable.
Omphalos is a ra/ex bullet that can be used once and has a terrible drop rate.

There is nothing comparable about them apart from being "the best for damage". The only reason you don't use Omphalos for Wildfire is because it's ra/ex with a shit drop rate. That same logic can't be applied to Culverin. The only reason you don't want to use culverin is because the bullets stack to 12.

Is it that hard to understand?

[Zirael]

The only reason you don't want to use culverin is because the bullets stack to 12.

Is it that hard to understand?

Yaay, you finalny got it!

Yes but culverin isn't &@%$ing ra/ex with a shit drop rate.

I’m not trying to anger you, but it baffles me why you think Thief should remain punished with unpouchable, 12-per-stack ammo in order to do at best -33% of your damage (assuming you play on COR, I’m not even touching RNG) on top of C+ Marksmanship skill.
Did you sob when Yellow/Red Curry Buns were introduced? Do you have any second thoughts unpouching those Orichalcum Bullets? Were the Trump Card Cases salt onto your wounds? Yet all I get for asking for non-retarded weapon and ammo is „Nooooo easy mode GTFO!!111”.
Assuming you play Thief, can you tell me, would/will you be using Last Stand with either Coffinmaker, Culverin+1 or Darkwing+1? Do you think anyone will? Ever?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not all heated up for this weapon skill, but having it as a viable option could break the monotony of dagger weapon skill spam or when you’re standing around weakened.

Culverin is the strongest option. It takes up inconvinient inventory space, but is easilly accessable.
Omphalos is a ra/ex bullet that can be used once and has a terrible drop rate.

There is nothing comparable about them apart from being "the best for damage". The only reason you don't use Omphalos for Wildfire is because it's ra/ex with a shit drop rate.

You’re focusing on differences, I tried to point out that once you’re out of ammo, you have to go back and get more. In your (COR/RNG/SAM) case, you’ll just unpouch another stack of ammo; this is not possible with Cannon Shells. Assuming I’d sacrifice 10 inventory slots for Culverin+1 ammo, how long it would last me? You play a ranged job, you tell me how much 120 bullets last. If it was you, would you sacrifice 10 inventory slots for ammo (I’m not even starting on RACC/Snapshot armor) to do below-medicore damage?
Unless Thief gets meaningful weapon/ammo options, this weaponskill will remain a dud. Samurai got a good deal out of Apex Arrow, which compliments Namas Arrow’s shortcomings quite well, why can’t Thief make some (niche and situational) use out of the Last Stand?