Why no Nuke love??

[cidbahamut]

No white mage Red Mage or Scholar is asking to be able to nuke damage heal like a black mage white mage, get over yourselves. All they're asking for is a continuation of a spell line, ones which are already in the game .

Hmmm... Cure V anyone?

[Aleste]

Yes, because comparing banish 4 for cure V makes complete sense....

[cidbahamut]

Your line of reasoning is identical, which was the point you missed like a champ.

[Aleste]

Actually, I didn't miss the point, I had figured that you were just poking fun and that you were not using it as the basis for RDM not getting Cure V (seriously, do we really have to cover this topic again?).

In fact, the line of reasoning isn't identical, it is similar in nature, but not identical. Though I cannot believe that you're comparing Banish 4 to Cure V as the main basis for your arguement. Really, that's just silly.

In terms of pure mathematical strength;
Banish 4 is in the dats set for WHM90, costs 108mp and does barely 100 damage higher compared to banish3. (~15% boost in damage at a cost of 16 more mp)
Cure V, compared to cure 4 (for a whitemage) is approximately a 55% boost inside abyssea on straight cure, and ~25% outside. (47 MP difference)

Comparatively, you could say that the increased MP cost of the strength of the spell, relative to the predessor, is approximately similar across both spells, however, when you stop to consider the old 'RDM or GTFO' mainhealing/event style play that used to dominate pre-abyssea FFXI then it becomes more than a simple equation. Cure V carries more weight than simply adding another damaging spell, and isn't a simple balance.


But, ok, I'll bite;

Lets assume for the minute that RDM gains Cure V, and that somehow, doesn't usurp WHM in the overall healing category. Let's look at it objectively shall we?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- - Cures - -

A 99 WHM/SCH with perfect curing gear will have~
Healing Skill - 421
MND - ~100 Varies with race and merits
VIT - ~80 Varies with race and merits
Enm - 0 (Assumption: either RDM or WHM will have the same quantity of base enm, pre- traits and later calculations)
Fast Cast - 30% 20% merits, 10% light arts

Add to this:
Surya's +3 24% potency
Reign grip 3MND
--
Mana ampulla 3MND
Orison cap +2 10MND 10% potency
Aifes medal 6MND
Roundel earri 5% potency
Orison earri 2% potency -3 enm
Orison Bli +2 20 skill
Augur gloves 7MND 5 skill 4% potency
Aquasoul ring 7MND
Aquasoul ring 7MND
Tempered cape 4 skill 4% potency
Cascade belt 7MND
Orison pan +2 12% CCT
Orison duck +2 8MND

Equates to~
49% potency, 58 MND, 29 skill, -3 enm
Base power 824, Cure V ~1,228
Cure V ~1,104


A 99 RDM/SCH with perfect curing gear will have~
Healing Skill - 386 (inc. arts)
MND - ~100 Varies with race and merits
VIT - ~80 Varies with race and merits
Fast Cast - 40% 30% FC V, 10% light arts

Add to this:
Surya's +3 24% potency
Reign grip 3MND
--
Mana ampulla 3MND
Ruach crown 12MND
Estoq. collar 8MND
Roundel earri 5% potency
Neptune pearl 4MND
Heka kalaris 17MND 15% potency 15% CCT
Augur gloves 7MND 5 skill 4% potency
Aquasoul ring 7MND
Aquasoul ring 7MND
Tempered cape 4 skill 4% potency
Cascade belt 7MND
Rubeus spats 12MND
Estoq. Hous+2 13MND -7 enm

Equates to~
50% (52//capped) potency, 100MND, 9 skill, -7 enm
Base power 917, Cure V ~1,264
Cure V ~1,128

Both jobs can hit simiarly high capped casting/recast time reduction....
Difference in barspells is approximately ~48.6 resist, 30MDB, 4% Negate WHM vs RDM
Difference in shell potency is 3.14%
Auspice vs enspells? no competition really... depends on how much you value subtle blow.
Enfeebling strength? depends on how much we're going to argue. Anything worth enfeebling is immune to even RDM potent enfeebling, anything fodder, WHM won't have issues capping.
Banish 1/2/3/ga/ga2 vs Fire/earth/water/wind/ice/lightning 1-4? FAAAAR weighed in RDMs favour.
Regen 3/4 vs phalanx? Depends on amount of damage sustained over time relative to other assisted curing. Sways either way.

Refresh/MP longetivity is an interesting question however, recent events/activities have vastly increased our capability of recovering MP (atma's/temps) which is why I kept this seperate from the above, however... RDM is capable of getting 1/tic more refresh than WHM, excluding refresh2 6/tic and convert (varies with HP, gear and timing; ~1,200/10mins ~2/tic); You can draw the line in the sand around Orison Pantaloons +2, versus the amount of MP saved via the reduced cost of re-haste/regenning the target if you'd like. I really can't be bothered.

So really, if we're min/maxing and you absolutely need the additional ~350 stoneskin (on a cureV) and ~4% difference in shell and barspells then get a WHM; otherwise you'd pick a RDM.

Honestly, given the previous situation of RDM BRD DD DD DD DD, I'm really not surprised that they're not going to give you Cure V.

(optional THEY TOOK OUR JOBS.jpg somewhere here if I can be bothered to hunt for one)
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Compare all that to WHM getting the capability of casting Banish 4 then. I'd love to see how you rationalise it.


---------// EDIT : My cure calculator is incorrect, scored through incorrect values and replaced with correct ones.

[Retsujo]

While the argument is solid to an extent, it's certainly not what the impier was implying when she sarcastically stated your argument for Banish IV is similar to what the RDMs have been whining about for Cure V. She wasn't saying 'prove to me why you are or aren't for or against Cure V for RDMs" she was saying "wanting Banish IV because it's been enough levels to justify having a higher tier" is similar to the Cure V argument going around.

I hope you don't miss the point this time around with my explanation ^^;

[Granny]

well even if rdm gets cure5 dont think it could come close to matching whm just for the fact alone of cureskin... . then another MASSIVE advantage is all the MDB whm can offer through stronger shell, and MDB bonusES it gets to its much stronger barspells which occ nullify its corrisponding element.

lol its it a massive 25 MDB whm barspells give for that element? merits 10, solace 5, emp body+2 gives another 5 to solace bonus, then that club from cactus abyssea altep nm gives another 5 to barspells so 25, then shell5 fully merited lol thats almost 50 cap right there...

dont see even with cure5 ppl would want rdm over whm. rdm needs some love and cure5 at least to make it even slightly more relevent to gameplay lol.

[Concerned4FFxi]

WHM is main heal, case closed. You want nuking power, get another job. I love whm, it's the best curing job in the game, if it gets too much nuking power the game will have to balance out and give other jobs cure V, when that happens it will be lolwhm all over again.

[Seiowan]

WHM is main heal, case closed. You want nuking power, get another job. I love whm, it's the best curing job in the game, if it gets too much nuking power the game will have to balance out and give other jobs cure V, when that happens it will be lolwhm all over again.

Ya know, you're right. I mean it's not as if we're the only job that gets the Banish line of spells, surely Paladin can put them to better use... /sarcasm

Giving White Mage's the higher tier Banish spells does nothing to turn them into a full-time nuking job. Sorry guys, but unless you've been living under a rock for the last ten years, you'll have noticed that of all the nuke spells, the Banish line not only has the longest recasts of them all, but also sucks by comparison damage-wise unless used on undead.

Undead are an exception because WHM is supposed to be the nemesis of all the unliving. We get merits to that effect! We have no native MAB to boost the damage and unlike Holy, there's no easy way to max it out unless we're smacked around the face so we can gain a bonus from Afflatus Misery, a practice few would recommend.

Black Mage's are hardly going to be put out by a few extra light-elemental magic spells, at least no more than they were with our other Banish spells. The only reason anyone disagrees here is because it means WHM getting new toys, and apparently because we're good at healing (okay, fine, we're the BEST at healing) that's a bad thing.

Do you guys play Scholar by any chance? I have a feeling that some of these posters are venting their frustrations at losing their helix spells to anyone /SCH. I hear your cries, by the way. I'm a Scholar too.

[Economizer]

the Banish line not only has the longest recasts of them all, but also sucks by comparison damage-wise unless used on undead.

The only way this is really true is the defense debuff it put on undead, which is great for bypassing damage reduction of ghosts/skeletons depending on what weapon you use.

We simply don't encounter undead enough for a focus on our undead killing spells to be effective, and cures have been nerfed too hard against undead to be effective either.

Black Mages, Scholars, and Red Mages can easily nuke harder, even on undead. I'd imagine that Dark Knights and Paladins come close.

We have no native MAB to boost the damage and unlike Holy, there's no easy way to max it out unless we're smacked around the face so we can gain a bonus from Afflatus Misery, a practice few would recommend.

Afflatus Misery only records the latest hit, so even that doesn't really help.

-

I've been refraining from posting in here again, because I have no interest in talking to people who have the opinion "because job x is good at something they deserve no attention except nerfs" when said job only excels at support. Every job in FFXI is capable of damage dealing, and should be considering the way people treat support jobs - additionally, other jobs can't expect greater healing or support ability if the main healing and support job is incapable of doing damage. Personally, I don't think White Mage is going to get much of a boost to nuking outside of maybe another underpowered tier or two, but those aren't going to make the difference, because White Mage is a pretty terrible nuker, and the real power of White Mage when it comes to damage has been melee for a very long time.

But I suppose posters who think White Mage shouldn't be given anything but a nerf want White Mage melee to be nerfed as well?

[Seiowan]

The only way this is really true is the defense debuff it put on undead, which is great for bypassing damage reduction of ghosts/skeletons depending on what weapon you use.

While partly true, undead also take significantly more damage from Banish spells than other enemy types. I'm sure someone could grace us with the actual modifier I'll just go with the knowledge that it's just "a heck of a lot more". Banish III can hit upwards of 700 damage on undead using basic gear (Yeah, massive nuke potential there, go WHM!), perhaps a little more if you get beat down with a powerful attack. Though, if you're being hit by something the last thing you probably want to do is provoke it further by blasting it with Banish spells, strong or otherwise.

We simply don't encounter undead enough for a focus on our undead killing spells to be effective, and cures have been nerfed too hard against undead to be effective either.

In my mind, cure spells should deal their healing amount in damage, as has always been the case in Final Fantasy games with no resistance possible and no MAB modifier added. At best, we could deal around 2.5k damage with Cure VI on an undead using Divine Seal, so it's hardly going to make us overpowered. But it would make for some more interesting ways to fight as a white mage, while futher strengthening the idea that WHM is an undead slayer. It would also aid Paladin's in their fight against the undead!

Black Mages, Scholars, and Red Mages can easily nuke harder, even on undead. I'd imagine that Dark Knights and Paladins come close.

Sorry, but Dark Knights don't even come anywhere near close. Their nuking potential is severely hampered by melee-centric equipment and a lack of MAB. There are items which boost that a bit, but it's hardly enough to make Dark Knights consider their elemental skill worthwhile. On the other hand, they do get a strong Drain spell but it's completely useless against undead. Paladins, again, can't really compete due to their melee-centric or tank-centric equipment. Maybe if they pushed the boat out they could get it higher, but their typically lower MIND stat drastically reduces the damage output on Banish spells when compared to White Mages.

Afflatus Misery only records the latest hit, so even that doesn't really help.

Yeah, that was really my point. Afflatus Misery isn't much of a benefit for nuking, despite what some earlier posts suggested. Taking considerable damage to deal a little bit more in nuke potential is a really stupid idea. I wonder which Dev thought that little beauty up.

White Mage is a pretty terrible nuker, and the real power of White Mage when it comes to damage has been melee for a very long time.

But I suppose posters who think White Mage shouldn't be given anything but a nerf want White Mage melee to be nerfed as well?

Probably, but hey, what are forums for