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  1. #11
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Honestly they should get their own enmity transfer abilities like THF does.

    Anyhow, it's extremely dishonestly to talk about hate cap without also talking about the DIFFERENT hate caps. There are two hate metrics that are added together to determine who has enmity. CE is the hate you get from damage and caps at 10000, it's ridiculously easy to cap and only goes down when you take damage. VE is the hate generated by abilities like provoke and some spells. VE has the same cap as CE but goes down at a rate of 60 units per second. Since every can cap CE easily, VE should be where tanking is focused on. PLD should get a job trait that lowers VE decay rate along with a set of abilities that give periodic VE generation in excess of the decay rate.
    (2)

  2. #12
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,238
    CE is ridiculously easy to cap compared to VE? On Paladin?

    lol.

    Practically any WS or JA will cap VE after one or two uses, and it's extraordinarily easy to maintain VE via melee swings.

    On the flipside, Paladin has no half-decent CE generating abilities. That is, unless you consider Flash's average 240 and maximum 360 CE per 23 seconds "good".

    CE is primarily generated through damage. Damage is not something PLD excels at. Thus, CE is not something PLD excels at. It can cap it, sure, who the hell can't cap Enmity? But it's certainly not a class exclusive thing - it's harder to deal with CE on Paladin than any other melee job.

    Also, Provoke is net negative Enmity. Stop asking for it.
    (8)

    I will have my revenge!

  3. #13
    Player Ziyyigo-Tipyigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    1,297
    Character
    Ziyyigotipyigo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher View Post
    Then the job becomes broken..
    Wouldn't be the first!
    (1)

  4. #14
    Player Alderin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    367
    Character
    Alderin
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    PLD is fine. Build an Ochain.

    For all the people about to Q.Q "awwz but i shouldn't have to build an empyrean for my job to be useless."

    Wake up, unless you're a mage job - end game content as it is pretty much requires some form of end game weapon.

    You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player Arcon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    2,753
    Character
    Arcon
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alderin View Post
    You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.
    Not sure who you party with, but no. And building an Ochain is still a bitch. Either way, no.
    (3)
    All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    FFXI: Leviathan > Arcon
    FFXIV: Selbina > Arcon Villiers

  6. #16
    Player Kriegsgott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    260
    Character
    Kriegsgott
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    PLD: i'm hungry !
    "Insert PLD Ability Name Here" - Consumes the Enmity of Party Members at the cost of TP/MP/HP whatever
    PLD: tasty!

    (recast 3-5-10min?)
    (1)

  7. #17
    Player Brolic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    252
    Character
    Brolic
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alderin View Post
    PLD is fine. Build an Ochain.

    For all the people about to Q.Q "awwz but i shouldn't have to build an empyrean for my job to be useless."

    Wake up, unless you're a mage job - end game content as it is pretty much requires some form of end game weapon.

    You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.
    i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars
    (6)

  8. #18
    Player KoKoMonsta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    6
    Character
    Kohh
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 95
    Ya, i agree with the idea of raising hate cap for PLD exclusively... While DDs are able to reach 100% hate cap, PLD should be able to boost up to 110%, its not a huge margain but if would help with hate control and still allow DDs to pull hate. Big problem is, as PLD takes dmg, hate is slowly decreasing; so if cap was increased to 110%, taking dmg would be more suddly and allow pld more time to get hate w/o dropping below 100% while dds are maxed out at 100%. SE can implement that throw merits, like a Job trait you can merit. It could be a meritable job trait similar to overwhelm, where once u merit it it remains active all times.

    Ex: Merit catagory 3 - "Escutcheon" Potential emnity cap is raised by 2% with each merit implanted.

    So if you can use 5/5 merits, it can increase to 110%.

    PLD isnt broken, but more like most DD's dont take in consideration of hate control. Seems like DDs forgot uses of /thf and mages starting nukes with lower tier rather than spammin T5 spells from start of a fight. Hate control doesnt always come from the pld.. but the ppl around him, thats why emn is so seperate from hate. Not truely factual but just my opinion lol
    (2)
    Last edited by KoKoMonsta; 12-07-2011 at 12:11 AM.

  9. #19
    Player Arcon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    2,753
    Character
    Arcon
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Brolic View Post
    i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars
    Not completely, but it's a good start. Shield Mastery allows PLD to gain TP rapidly with Ochain, and Chant du Cygne or Requiescat will be able to put out good ish numbers. That way, PLD will be able to gain both VE and CE fast enough, and not only that, but by taking very little damage they'll also lose little enmity.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoKoMonsta View Post
    Ya, i agree with the idea of raising hate cap for PLD exclusively... While DDs are able to reach 100% hate cap, PLD should be able to boost up to 110%, its not a huge margain but if would help with hate control and still allow DDs to pull hate.
    Wrong, DDs wouldn't be able to pull hate, unless PLD takes massive damage to take out a good portion of its CE. Apart from that PLD would keep hate indefinitely. Raising hate cap is no solution.
    (0)
    All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    FFXI: Leviathan > Arcon
    FFXIV: Selbina > Arcon Villiers

  10. #20
    Player Alderin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    367
    Character
    Alderin
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcon View Post
    Not sure who you party with, but no. And building an Ochain is still a bitch. Either way, no.
    Hmmm... That was my point exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brolic View Post
    i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars
    They deflect them like a mirror yo... Didn't say that though - Enmity issues are a complete different kettle of fish.

    I will admit, I am guilty of originally reading the title and assumed this was going to be one of those "fix PLD so I can tank without building an empyrean or relic" threads that we got riddled with. So I do semi-retract my original post after reading this thread a little more.


    PLD enmity is an issue and always will be with the current hate system. I believe the only real solution would be to completely remove non-decaying enmity and give all enmity some way to decay over time (say if a Ukon war hits the hate cap, their previous "non decay enmity" would start to decay. Basically meaning that if a DD really wants to lose hate, best way would be to disengage and wait while their enmity starts to deplete. If enmity was totally shared amoung the alliance on a percentage basis, without a non-decay variable then it would allow a PLD to hold hate better.

    Lets assume we have 4 jobs already on a hate list - with equal share of 25% PLD / WAR / WHM / BLM.. As the PLD keeps building hate, the enmity towards the other 3 would decrease (PLD gets to say 30%, so the WAR, WHM, BLM slowly deplete at an even rate. If say the WAR decided to start zerging, the other 3 job's enmity would start to decay. The advantage of a PLD at this rate would be the ability to effectively "steal" the Warrior's hate by decaying it once the WAR disengages or slows it's damage.

    I am not entirely sure if this is kind of what is already in place, but the fact that there is an actual "hate cap" that no one player can have more non-decay enmity then another is beyond me... I say remove non-decay enmity and base it purely on decaying enmity. I am no programmer - nor do I know how enmity is really "modelled" but removing non-decay enmity makes more sense to me.

    Anyway that is how to "improve" PLD's ability to hold hate in my eyes.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alderin; 12-07-2011 at 03:36 AM.

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