[dev1049] Stardiver Polearm WS

[Amador]

Ok we gotta understand that DRG's got their *real* Emperian WS from Nyzule Isle lol. Drakesbane is a four hit crit WS, its on par with most emperian WS's and better then others. So lets try not to compare Stardiver to Drakesbane, especially that every DRG can get Drakes easily. Stardiver seems to be more for polearm builds on SAM and WAR then for DRG's. And before people start complaining, imagine your Drakesbane was similar to SAM's Rana.

Really?

Just FYI Ukko's Fury has the ability to pop 4k-5k on Qilin, and Kaggen type NMS. To compare Ukko's Fury to Drakesbane is an extreme belittling of the weapon skill as a whole.

The reality of it is, for 100 merit points you'd expect something with more bite. For those who actually TESTED the weapon skill, and aren't on here jusy saying: "Well, it's fine because it is and I say it is." without bringing up real hard math and evidence as has been posted that it's simply not up to par.

This is a Thread to look at a WS in which some players have tested, and the feed back we're giving the dev team is that it needs a bigger boost. What's wrong with the feed back? Select people just can't be bothered to view hard numbers and say alright, ok. I see it.

Amador, you forget these weapon skills are not job specific. So therefore these weapon skills are not meant to replace things like Ukko's Fury, Drakesbane, Stringing Pummel. Stardiver is meant to give Drakesbane-like power to other Polearm wielding jobs or to even the disparity between Drakesbane and all other polearm WS. If Stardiver were a job specific weapon skill, than it would be a different story.

Also, if Stardiver was stronger than Drakesbane, don't you think SAM and WAR would hop on that bandwagon and start using Polearms? I can guarantee that if Stardiver outdamaged Drakesbane, WAR and SAM would make better use of it than DRG since WAR has Berserk/Hasso/Bloodrage/DA and SAM can spam TP like crazy.

Have you not been reading the forums, and other test process that have been done on a majority of these weaponskills? Some not only replace, they DESTROY Empyrean/Relic/Mythic. How can you make a baseless argument like that as if you were a Dev and you knew what they intended with these weapon skills?

EVEN if, by that degree, it was meant to give Crit Based Weapon Skills a boost. My argument is simple: THAT IT IS DPS DAMAGING TO DO SO AT THIS POINT AND TIME DUE TO IT'S LACK OF PUNCH AND POTENCY OF IT'S DEBUFF.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Who cares if other jobs got it? It's not as if they have a high damage polearm, none of been released thus far for those two jobs. I like that you mention Berserk, Blood Rage and DA. However, you realize WAR got more nearly all of those new WS's while most jobs can get 2.

From a positive stand point, those jobs are overdue for a useful WS in the polearm department.

Sam and war get nothing near as good polearms as drg, this WS would still be worthless to them. However whm is getting its toes stepped on with realmrazer by pld since they get at least 1 good club.

Uh, what? I think you need to review Club Options.

People said that back at 75 and it didn't stop SAM's and WAR's from beating out DRG's back then. SAM has access to the couse's and while their not as good as the lances, their are still a few that are high DMG with 480 delay (Draca couse is 112DMG 480 Delay STR+7). Jobs like SAM do not need to do higher WS damage then a DRG, they'll just increase quantity to compensate. If this WS was better then Drakes Bane, then SAM/WAR + Stardiver would beat out a DRG/SAM with Stardiver every time.

I'd be willing to bet outside of Abyssea SAM/WAR will still beat DRG outside of Abyssea with Stardiver regardless. Due to Overwhelm, Berserk, Warcry, and all of those Firing My Laser inbalance Samurai Bleeds. But oh well!

Wearing Gorget/Belt/TP Bonus Moonshade boosts it back up to about 4 fTP, but I agree that it probably should have been 5-hits if they were going to put this mechanic on it.

Drakes is 4-hits, Crit, and 50% STR. Polearm base damage is substantial.
Stardiver with 140 STR:
127 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 283 base damage
322*3.93 = 1112 Base Damage*fTP

Drakes with 200 STR:
63 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 219 base damage
241*4 = 876 Base Damage*fTP

So (in an extreme case), Stardiver has a ~25% base damage lead over Drakes. Drakes has a 20-30% crit rate in WS gear. Crits increase pDIF by between 50 and 100%. As it is, it's hard to argue that Stardiver is an improvement over Drakes except in very strange situations where you're fighting EP monsters with buffs and a low crit rate/Damage. If cRatio drops (high level or high defense targets), then the value of crits goes way up and bridges the gap. If Crit rate or Crit Damage goes up (like in Abyssea), then the value of crits/being able to crit goes way up and bridges the gap.

Overall, it lacks a fifth hit. It also lacks a useful WS property. It should have been Fragmentation.

Edit: I guess it is worth noting that the Weapon Skills category is headed with "Group 1." Assuming that "Group 2" enhances "Group 1," we perhaps shouldn't be so quick to judge.

Drakesbane will always get better depending on who you have in your party too.

IE: Blood Rage, let's not forget the +10% Critical Hit Damage on our Lancer's Cuissots +2. Which makes that gap even smaller.

Tell that to the war's spamming Raging Rush for 8 years, the Ninja's spamming Jin since RotZ came out, the Thieves spamming DE for 8 years, the MNK's spamming Asuran for 8 years, the SAM's spamming Gekko since RotZ...really, 5 years aint shiet.

Okay. I'll tell it to the most over powered job in the game, nice Steel Cyclone, nice Raging Rush, nice King's Justice, amazing Ukko's Fury. Oh, wait... Now Ninja is a good one, they have never gotten much, not till recently and that's a good thing, very over due. Thieves did in fact spam DE, and alternated with Sharkbite for SA stacking, then went to Evisceration once that update happened and oh wait, they actually got a useful Relic WS Mercy Stroke, didn't they? MNK held highest DPS for a long time. Dragon Kick, Asuran, and so on. You can't sit there and argue for MNK. You mean the Gekko that was broken for about a month and 2 SAM's could basically 2hr and kill Nidhogg at 75? Oh right.

Baseless argument, you should of stopped at Ninja if you wanted to compare.

Everything aside, this isn't for some type of WS ego boost for DRG, it's to stress the actual use of it. Is Samurai and Warrior going to slap on a Polearm and use it? More than likely not, considering they have had better options for a long time and that list of better items keeps growing.

If you haven't tested, and you aren't showing hard numbers why jump on here to cry about how things are fine, and about how you're so old school you feel this warrants this and that. Go ahead and download the test client, and go run some numbers yourself on enemies. Be it EP, or not.

In the end it's going to be 100 merits for those who wish to get Stardiver. Why is it wrong to be able to compile information before hand that says... "It probably isn't gonna be worth while because of: Data" therefore, "Meh".

Again, this is from the people who have tested the weapon skill and ran the numbers. Would you feel better if the information for it was on Wikipedia or perhaps some other form of fashion?



tl;dr? - Summary -
For those who actually try to argue for the weapon skills sake, the argument is the same: But we get a whole +5% Crit rate increase for 60 seconds!

It's rather disappointing honestly, I'd expect solid responses which actually have some type of information within them. That supports or goes against Stardiver.

The topic is Stardiver testing/potential adjustments and information regarding Stardiver. Enough with the derailing of useless and baseless information that does absolutely nothing.

[Byrth]

It would have been nice if it had been Fragmentation. Even without an extra hit, then you could have gone Stardiver -> Drakes for Light and more reliable Drakes damage.

I'll trade you Exenterator's Fragmentation property for your Gravitation property. All sales final though. No takebacks.

[Amador]

It would have been nice if it had been Fragmentation. Even without an extra hit, then you could have gone Stardiver -> Drakes for Light and more reliable Drakes damage.

I'll trade you Exenterator's Fragmentation property for your Gravitation property. All sales final though. No takebacks.

That's what I'm talking about. See, that alone would increase it's useability.

[Dragonlord]

Uh, what? I think you need to review Club Options.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17069/moepapa-mace

[Amador]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17069/moepapa-mace

Like I said I no longer want derails, go Wiki White Mage and figure out what they have available for yourself. You're mistaken. That's all.

[Amador]

Spoke to Fitman on Test Server, he's done some testing as well on Stardiver.

fTP 100% = 0.75, 200% = 0.84375(216/256) and 300% = 0.9375.

:|

Meaning that the total fTP of this WS is:
100% = 3.0
200% = 3.375
300% = 3.75

Meaning?

With gorget and belt, as both at this current time are undisputed for this WS

100% = 3.78
200% = 4.155
300% = 4.53

Moonshade Earring +25 TP Bonus, Elemental Gorget, and Elemental Belt

Moonshade alone will raise these numbers by 0.09375 give or take (Revised with Byrth!)

Combined total will be: 0.28875

meaning
100% = 4.155
200% = 4.53
300% = 4.905

Which would be a much, much, much better an powerful upgrade to all of this realistically.

Even more so, if they (hopefully) adjust the fTP to being 1.0 across all 4 hits. Regardless, I guess it's safe to say TP Bonus is a big part of this WS at this time.

[Martel]

Like I said I no longer want derails, go Wiki White Mage and figure out what they have available for yourself. You're mistaken. That's all.

<derail>He wasn't talking about WHM club selection. He was referring to PLD encroaching on WHM's traditional territory(Club DD) via the combination of Moepapa mace(that one good Club PLD can wear) and realmrazer. </derail>

<ontopic>It's only -5% crit eva? That's disappointing. I'll probly still merit it fully, but only cause I keep running outta stuff to merit. And cause it's pretty. Hoping for adjustments when this is released on the main servers.</ontopic>

[Amador]

<derail>He wasn't talking about WHM club selection. He was referring to PLD encroaching on WHM's traditional territory(Club DD) via the combination of Moepapa mace(that one good Club PLD can wear) and realmrazer. </derail>

<ontopic>It's only -5% crit eva? That's disappointing. I'll probly still merit it fully, but only cause I keep running outta stuff to merit. And cause it's pretty. Hoping for adjustments when this is released on the main servers.</ontopic>

On topic response: Yes, I ran a couple of samples and crit rate continued to fluctuate quite a bit between 5-7% 9% rarely, so it's more than likely 5%. That or something such as 7%. It'd be nice if it was the latter, but only one sample showed 7% difference in both Wyvern and Dragoon.

[Amador]

I guess I can see why it's not a higher fTP bonus...

@1.0 fTP across the board it would be: 5.155 fTP mod @ 100% TP with Elemental Gorget/Belt. I wish I had a TP Bonus Earring, I feel... as if I haven't tested it fully because I lack one. Hmm.

Oh well I guess. Maybe as Byrth said, they'll allow through more meriting into this WS perhaps raising the Enemy Critical Hit Evasion from 5-7% to 10-15%. We'll see.

[Dragonlord]

Some testing has been done on other WS, it seems the ones with out an fTP lower than 1 don't get gorget/belt's fTP added to all hits. So if SE did change the WS to 1.0 across the board, it would also, most likely, only have first hit affected by fTP. Thus resulting in a total of 4.2 fTP WS.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106...=1#post4920585

Prothescar's testing on tachi: shoha